Parenting without punishment

[pinkliquorice]

In general mumsnet seems quite punishment happy and this approach seems to be heavily criticised.
Just wanted to start a thread for other parents to share their tips and experiences with not punishing.

Anyone else against punishments?
Anyone wanting to try it?

Buck that depends whether you're looking at positive parenting (focus on, encourage and praise the good, ignore the bad) or unconditional parenting (which I can't bear as a term and think the book should never have been marketed as a parenting guide! Interesting theoretical text, though.)

Most gentle parenting/AP/TCS etc falls a little way in between and I think it's extremely rare to find a parenting philosophy which would discourage expressing your genuine pride/pleasure at your child's kind behaviour. Even Alfie Kohn in Unconditional Parenting says you should not hold back genuine happiness with your child, although the focus is more on the child being rewarded themselves by the good feeling they get from being nice to others.

What the theory suggests at the most extreme end would be not artificially rewarding that e.g. with a gift, or using descriptive praise, so rather than simply saying "Good girl", you say something like "I saw that you were very kind to X who was finding it hard to settle in. X looks really happy now and I think that you really helped her have a positive experience." In fact that doesn't express any particular emotion about it from your side but does let the child make the judgement themselves! But I think most parents would find it natural to add that they are very proud, or a well done or that they thought it was a nice thing to do, which is also of course fine.

If any of this feels unnatural or wrong to you then I would suggest - don't do it! Or read a bit about why it's suggested and then adapt it to your needs if you think that it fits.

Cloudhopping you can be a positive and an assertive parent this is the problem when the lines get blurred I think. Being positive doesn't have to mean being passive. I wouldn't let stuff go that's causing you to lose your shit!

Room tip! Take an empty washing basket and bin bag upstairs and ask them to come with you. Then this is what they do while you direct/encourage

Step 1: They make their bed/beds
Step 2: They put ALL clothes on the bed, clean or dirty
Step 3. Using the basket they put anything that's NOT rubbish in it
Step 4. Use the bin bag and put all rubbish in it
Step 5: Sort the washing on the bed, clean clothes away and dirty in laundry hamper/machine.

Then you leave them with the washing basket/baskets to empty themselves. If you want you can hoover while the floor is clear but generally this is quite a fast and simple room cleaning tip for teens and pre teens which isn't too daunting for them! HTH

We do use no - we definitely use the more explanatory phrases as well and we use them first. No is used as a reinforcer or to stop them in their tracks in danger.

So: toddler last night was pointing to teddy bears eyes then my eyes, nose etc. All fine. Yes bear has a nose! You have a nose, where’s your nose? Where’s my nose! Yup!
Then toddler starts being a bit more enthusiastic and actively poking eyes and noses. “Right, we don’t poke eyes, that can hurt. Touch them gently like this. Good yes like that. Thank you.’

If toddler then carries on poking eyes, he will get a firm, gentle ‘ No poking eyes.’ And if he carries on, I’ll gently take hold of his hand to stop him, eye contact and ‘no.’ He understands that the no is connected to the action because I’ve already explained it. I’m not explaining it again now, I’m expressing that the action I’ve explained isn’t ok

I think no has its place. It’s not my first go to, but it’s useful as a reinforcer.

I think people who never say no under any circumstance are kind of missing the point. The point isn’t to never utter the word, it’s to explore ways of communicating better - bertie explains it well above, in a way that is age appropriate.

When people take ides like ‘no nos’ and don’t understand WHY it’s done you end up with people who are evangelical about the wrong thing (and unfortunately kids who are often very poorly parented.)

@BertieBotts

I really like you ideas and explanations of not punishing. Thankyou, I have read some of what you wrote to my DS.

@Mamabear4180

Personally I havnt done much research into gentle parenting, But if not using the word 'no' is what is recommended then I wouldnt consider this aproach.
I use no punishments because that feels natural and effective for me and my children but using the word no is often necessary.
Sometimes though parents use no automatically and without any reason, when I hear parents 'say because I said so' even I see that as unfair and am not suprrised when their child does it anyway or tantrums about it. I will never just say no to my children , there has to be a reason and I want them to know and understand why I am saying no.
I completely agree that parenting by instinct and compassion is the best and only way.

Really well explained Bertie thank you. I agree with it all actually.

And agree totally that these techniques are not in themselves passive. In fact, I think if you are a passive person and won’t lay down boundaries as well, these techniques won’t work as well.

Kids need boundaries - pushing against the boundaries is how they learn, and how the parent asserts those boundaries is vital to how a child experiences and sees the world.
Being too punitive is damaging and having no boundaries and being too permissive is I think damaging too.

They model the behaviour you show. If you’re too permissive they will turn into kids with no respect for others. If you’re really punitive and shouty they learn that conflict is resolved by exertion of power. Neither of those options is great.

We try to walk a middle way of treating them with respect, and insisting that they treat us and the society around hem with respect (which ties into the question earlier about how to get kids used to the rules they will encounter in school etc.)

Cheers Mamabear.

@grasspigeons @BeyondThePage

Both really good explanations, currently I just dont punish and try not to be negative but I would like to make more effort in using positive instructions and restricting the amount i use no, or just how i use the word no.

@BertieBotts

Again your explanations are amazing! You seem very knowlegable and well read on the subject and I will be trying to use a lot of your suggestion more with my own children. Thankyou.

I have 3 grown children (youngest is 16).

The second there is an adversarial feeling between parents and children, everyone has lost that part of the battle. You want kids to feel that you are all on the same side, working to help everyone learn and develop and grow older gracefully.

I think people get into trouble when they misinterpret their children's signals: fear of separation, jealousy of siblings, need for exercise, need for mental stimulation, need for autonomy, need for adventure. These are some common needs which parents often misunderstand. Bad behaviour in toddlers is often ascribed to teething, tiredness or hunger. My list is an expanded version (and applies to all children not just toddlers).

I think if you respond to what is really going on, while stopping the child from throwing things, pinching sister, etc, the need for punishments doesn't really come up.

I think the real problem with punishments is that they are usually humiliating, cause the child to lose face, and create anger (possibly accompanied by grudging compliance possibly by fiery defiance), rather than a desire to do better.

I also think that kids are very sensitive to phoniness, and that in order to do a good job of parenting without punishments you have to speak and act from the heart. Also, it is unrealistic to think that anything will always work, or will work in a smooth curve, or that you will always be loving and consistent. Honest parents admit to doing a crappy job sometimes, shouting and overreacting, but to me it was always better to stay away from coercion (rewards and punishments).

Aww Thank you.

The point about being passive and struggling to set boundaries is so very right. This is really important, and I wish it was talked about more in gentle parenting circles. It's another reason, I feel, that it's counterproductive to present this philosophy as being TOTALLY different and radical - in reality it is not very different to how most people think, it just takes some things a little further, that's all.

One reason that we decided to adopt some generic punishments was that I am quite prone to reacting childishly myself. Much as I would love to be positive or gentle or (whatever) at all times and can think of a solution when I'm completely removed from the situation, in reality in a real situation when I'm getting wound up I'm not very good at taking a step back, but this is because I am not very good at setting the boundary to begin with.

For a while, because I felt that generic reward/punishment methods were harmful or undesirable I kind of missed the fact that often I was straying into something which was actually much worse, where I'd really lose it and be quite scary. In my head, I was doing alright because I wasn't relying on the punishment methods which I was quite afraid of, but when people got me to actually look at what was happening, I could recognise that actually what I was ending up doing was much more harmful, not to mention confusing. So I then thought about the idea of punishment/reward even though this made me feel uneasy, I picked some specific things which I felt comfortable with and which I knew DS could cope with, and that is now my compromise. I don't get into shouty ragey seeing red mode any more and the threat of punishment is sort of my panic button when I do get close to this state so that it never happens. I really do not like following through because usually the time to enact the punishment is after the behaviour has ended! But when I remind myself of how I used to feel after I'd really exploded, it is worth it.

Obv I do still shout or speak frustratedly at times, because I'm human, but I'm not actually being horrible and threatening, which is what was happening before.

I found a really nice Janet Lansbury article today when I was looking at stuff for this where she says that the most important thing we say to our children is "I love you" - that's the connection, the positive bit, the relationship, encouragement, building self esteem, all of those things which encourage them to behave well. And then she says that the second most important thing to say is "I won't let you do that" - because boundaries are our job to set and how they learn. Here's the article if you want: www.janetlansbury.com/2012/10/if-gentle-discipline-isnt-working-this-might-be-the-reason/

I've lost count of the times I've seen parents shouting at or threatening their children with punishments. In shops, in the street, the surgery, outside the school, and children of all ages. Toddlers too young to understand delayed consequences, and children older who should either behave or at least be capable of reason. Why is it that parents persist in this, they use it as a strategy and they keep doing so because their children keep misbehaving.

I've raised my voice once to DS2 aged 12 and four or five times to DS1 aged 16. I haven't needed to for years. I've never used punishment or sanctions and never hit them. I don't need to. That is the point. I don't need to because they behave well.

I don't use superficial praise or rewards either. I do though take every opportunity to discuss and debate, talk about natural consequence to choices, and ask them what they think are the relative benefits or disadvantages to their choices and actions.

They are both quiet, self-disciplined, polite, and caring. Both have always had what I believe is a really good understanding of issues like justice, equality, respect and both use reason to decide for themselves right from wrong. I'm proud of them, but I've never told them that. It's an expectation not an extraordinary talent!

I do absolutely say because I said so . My reason I do not have to justify every decision I make to my Dc . Imagine a classroom with explaining to the 30 children why they have to justify why they are teaching everything . That doesn’t mean he never gets an explanation . He is not my equal because he doesn’t have my life experience and knowledge to make informed decision

I don't do punishments like grounding, removing screens, confiscating toys or whatever as I don't think I could enforce them (I'm quite lazy) rather than any ideological reason.

I do think shouting, removing something that might get broken or removing yourself or the child from the room/situation are pretty natural consequences though! The consequence of not putting your shoes on when I ask nicely is that I am now shouting SHOES! ON!!!

I will generally intervene and tell off/explain/correct behaviour and I suppose I do impose sanctions but they are more along the lines of if you mess around at bedtime you won't have time for a story rather than no TV tomorrow. Not sure if that counts as punishment or not?

I have both a compliant child and a feral one btw

I do absolutely say because I said so . My reason I do not have to justify every decision I make to my Dc . Imagine a classroom with explaining to the 30 children why they have to justify why they are teaching everything . That doesn’t mean he never gets an explanation . He is not my equal because he doesn’t have my life experience and knowledge to make informed decision

I think that’s the same loophole abusers use.

pinkliquorice
That's good to know.

I've always been curious about it because often 'natural' parenting and other variations or some philosophy or other are reasons given by less than supportive parents. So you get things like 'I don't agree with detentions so they aren't doing one' and then the child starts 'you can do ... my mam says...' (like a cocky brat).

What you (and others) are showing me ia that i'm right to think mosr parents who natural consequences parenting qould support school and the ones who are routinely awkward probably have an irresponsible/lazy 'no rules and no consequences' approach but dress it up like some moral philosophy when they kick off at us.

I am not an abuser I am a parent !!!!!

I think that’s the same loophole abusers use
Are you for real?

It's nonsense like this thay makes me wonder why schools have so many issues with children think they only have to do yhings if they like it.

If i want them to underline the date abd title then it is absolutely because that's how I like my books to look.

Schools wouldn't function if we got into lengths debatea and justifications with Charlie who thinks she is the 1st 14 year old to say 'but why should I wear my skirt properlu it doesn'y affect my learning'. Now i know some of them are being cheered on by adults who think we should justify every request to a child.

School has always been a fairly straightforward issue with mine. "What are the consequences of not sitting, not wearing uniform, etc....?" Ok it's "detention" so "do you want a detention?" The answer is invariably no.

I've always explained to DC that I have no control over how other people behave. I don't have control over how they behave either. It's up to each individual to think and then behave with integrity, and to treat other people as they would wish to be treated. It's also up to them to decide how best to achieve their aims. If leaving on time, is an aim then they know to avoid being given a detention.

However I have been into the school once to speak to a stressed angry teacher who was shouting at the entire class. She was sacked following an investigation. Otherwise I have to be supportive. I'm realistic, I can't intervene. My parents were anti establishment, I am too, as are my DC but what they are also is pragmatic and know that in order to leave with qualifications they must endure it.

@Starlight2345

The reason I never just say no is exactly what you just said because my Dc don’t have the life experience and knowledge I do so I explain to them why I am saying no so they can understand what they are doing wrong and learn from it.
I don’t think ‘because I said so’ is a fair or valid argument at all and I don’t think many children will see it as one either.
It’s seem like you don’t have an justification for saying no and you are just saying it for the sake of it. In most cases when I see parents saying no and refusing to give a reason they children will protest why and that’s not fair, whinge and be much more likely to to that thing anyway.
I also don’t want my children to follow commands blindly, this is why someone likened you argument to the ones abusers use.
Children shouldn’t have to listen to an adult, if what an adults suggests seems wrong and unfair I want my children to feel they can question and challenge it and not have to accept because I said so as an argument.
Please don’t teach your children that they just need to listen to every adult because they are not equal to them, they are very much equal, they need to be taught to question things and not be afraid to refuse, if you don’t teach them this you are making them much more vunrable to child abuser/kidnappers and paedophiles.
Please rethink what you are saying.

I think that’s the same loophole abusers use

it's not a 'loophole' it's a valid point a parent has made. What a horrible thing to say! Parenting isn't black and white and neither should it be.

I actually agree that you don't have to justify every decision/request with an explanation. Asking why can often just be a delaying tactic or game to children anyway, this is something parents need to weigh up at the time.

@MaisyPops @Mamabear4180

I think the issue is not having to justify everything decision you make to your children ( you don’t).
But we need to be teaching our children that they don’t have to accept everything an adult says just because they are a child and not an adult, this makes them very vulnerable to predators and abuse.
If something an adult is saying to my children sounds wrong or unfair or it contradicts something I’ve taught them then it is okay for them to challenge it, they can refuse and go and get help and they definitely do not need to take ‘because I said so’ as valid just because it is an adult saying it.
Do you want your children removing their clothes, getting in the back of a van, consuming unknown substances or going of with a stranger because they have be taught to accept everything an adult says and never challenge it?

Children shouldn’t have to listen to an adult

My children have to listen to me. If they don't I can't keep them safe and I'm not worthy to look after them. It's absolutely crucial that I have my kids respect and a fundamental part of my parenting. This is a crazy notion when it comes to the child's own parents sorry!

Children can question an adult sure..when they understand what's happening and have the maturity to distinguish what's right and wrong but from a young age they need to be protected from abusers not taught to expect them in every adult who is looking after them.

I will be hiding this thread after this post . Basically because I am not an abuser nor am I teaching my Ds to allow himself to be groomed because at times he simply has to do what he is told .

Learning how to politely ask questions and challenge is different to telling children that they are right to demand reasons and end up getting into endless 'but whyyyyy?'

If a child wants to ask me about soemthing in school they are more than welcome to politely discuss it with me at the end of the lesson. If they choose to get into 'why should it? But why? But X doesn't affect my learning!' then they'll be sanctioned.

Because I say so is an entirely appropriate response when you have teenagers being deliberately obtuse (or generally argumentative because all thry hear at homr is why home don't like school rules). I'm not wasting teaching time to discuss:

• why we underline dates and titles
• why students can't wear a hoody under their blazer because 'I'm cold' when thry conveniently have neither a school jumper or a coat
• why they can't write in purple pen
• why they aren't allowed to wear earings
• why a 8A (who have maths on monday) does the test on monday but 8B (who has maths Tuesday) does it on Tuesday

I teach children to think independently, but equally don't agree with the way some people are fine with excusing not following rules because 'you didnt explain why'

@Mamabear4180 @Starlight2345

You completely are missing the point, I even specifically said that notion shouldn’t have to apply to a child’s own parents.
But there does need to be some justification behind no, children need to understand why you are saying no so that they can learn to respect your decisions and make their own correct ones in the future.
The risk is that children are being taught that they are not equal to adults, that they should trust adults and follow everything an adult says, that is a horrific thought.
No not everything needs to be justified or explained but If it sounds wrong to the child they deserve a justification and shouldn’t be made to do something they feel is wrong of they feel uncomfortable with just because an adult said so.