The problem with my daughter's Muslim school friends - or rather their parents

[Jules2]

I wonder if anyone else has experienced/is experiencing this problem. My 10-year-old daughter goes to a Haringey junior school with a fairly high number of Muslim children - the make up approx. 50% of her class of 28. Her group of friends in school are mostly Muslim girls. But unfortunately (with a couple of very occasional exceptions) these poor girls do not seem to be allowed to mix with non-Muslims outside of school hours. Over the years, invitations to come to our house to play, or come to parties have been rejected with many an implausible excuse. My DD has gone to maybe a couple of parties held by her friends in 5+ years of school. Weekends are taken up with Islamic school for the most part - or they stay at home. They are not allowed to go to the cinema, swimming or whatever with non-Muslims. I find it incredibly frustrating and annoying to see my daughter upset because she is unable to socialise with these girls outside of school. She doesn't understand why - and neither do I really. The school is fond of billing itself as a multicultural, inclusive school but the message doesn't seem to have gotten through to this section of the population. I'm afraid I have started to believe that if immigrants to this country - from any racial or religious background - do not want their children to mix with children from other ethnic/religious backgrounds (including British-born children), then maybe they have chosen the wrong country to come and live in. (My DD is half Chinese, by the way - but born here.) I'd be happy to hear from some Muslim parents with a different attitude - I hope there are some out there.

So tolerance is not questioning values then?

You don't want your children mixing with those who's values don't confirm with yours just as those that don't want there's mixing with the op's, you don't see a long term problem with this? Are you suggesting we do not question it?

The area around Gleneagles road and the surrounding high street has been called little Mogadishu for a while now.

Behind the new ice rink? By who? UKIP?

Futher up, past the tesco near the job centre, most of the businesses there are Somali owned

I am mixed race and I say, I dont think there is a negative connotation to it more descriptive.

Hadn't noticed who owned what TBH

It's not my job to go round challenging 'traditional' Muslims on their values is it? How colonialist is that?

So long as schools are totally neutral, and in this country emphasise equal rights on sex, race, religion etc, and so on, I think that's enough and it will eventually percolate through. Do you want to educate people on your own time, on what they should be thinking and on how western liberal values are better? It seems a bit presumptuous to me. I would say that's for the schools to do, and where adults are concerned, just make sure the law is obeyed, and in the case of abused women and children, they have access to the law, to British law, not just a local or religious law.

Its hard to miss, I always go there all the Somali shops there stock really good imported pasta and Italian biscuits.

The only thing I did notice when I walked the length of Streatham high st last summer was that I didn't hear any english accents at all. That struck me as odd because at the Rookery, less than a mile away, where I go once a week, there are quite a few. But when I am up that way (jobcentre end of Streatham) I often stop at the small green and there is quite a mixture of people inc many Jamaican and East european accents.

But the explanation for Rookery and Streatham Hill having some English accents and Gleneagles Rd/ Streatham Tesco area NOT, is I suspect economic.....

I am muslim and my children go to a very mixed school but I have observed that majority only mix with their own kind. So stop blaming Muslims.

The rookery is the near the pricey end of streatham. I hardly ever walk up there. (Mainly because that hill is vicious)

Not the case in the OP Shami, or Nicki. They've tried to make friends but been rejected by muslims because their children aren't muslim.

It's not my job to go round challenging 'traditional' Muslims on their values is it? How colonialist is that?

But Baker you've said that you won't allow your DC to go on play dates because of cultural practices. THAT could be construed as neo-colonialist.

No one is "blaming" Muslims Shami we are talking about our experiences. It might be helpful for you to contribute yours if you've had similar.

It's not colonialist at all though Arsenic, I'm not imposing my views on anyone else. It's completely the opposite of colonialist.

My DDs were at a school in inner London whose pupils were largely Muslim (85 percent plus), often the children of very recent immigrants whose mothers in particular spoke very little English. DD1 had a birthday party in reception to which the whole class was invited -- on a Sunday, because we knew lots of the children would be at mosque or Arabic school on Saturday. We only had a few replies, even after the teacher (Arabic speaker) asked the parents about it. Another little boy had the same experience, with really only children whose parents were British (Muslim and not) responding.

The teacher's explanation was that as Muslims (at least from that part of the world) don't really celebrate birthdays, the parents didn't 'get' that it was an important part of the culture here.

She also said that as the children got older, they asked to go the parties and that the parents tended to be led by them, and we found that was starting to be the case before we moved house (when DD1 was in year 3). But it was hard when they were little to explain why close friend X wasn't coming to their birthday when Y who they barely played with was.

I am muslim and my children go to a very mixed school but I have observed that majority only mix with their own kind. So stop blaming Muslims.

I don't think anyone is blaming Shami.

I would feel sad about anyone who didn't let their DC mix though and that would include people who did so for religious reasons inc some muslims or plymouth brethren or fundamentlist christians of any stripe OR people like Baker or anyone else who applied a blanket policy despite it upsetting their DC.

It's not colonialist at all though Arsenic, I'm not imposing my views on anyone else. It's completely the opposite of colonialist.

It's imposing your views on your DC.

You could just go the "some people believe" route. And have confidence in the values that you are instilling.

It's not a blanket policy as in 'no Muslims', that would be awful! Absolutely not. I just can't explain say head-covering the way Nicki says she does it , much respect to her for it, but I just want the children to know it's completely unacceptable for women and girls to be seen that way. Especially sons shouldn't be given that impression. So no, it's a case of live and let live, won't interfere, but no thanks. I don't really see what's wrong with that at all.

You mean I'm being colonialist with my children by telling them that women should be seen as subservient?

Shouldn't, shouldn't be seen as subservient

I don't understand, am I colonising my children? How do you be colonialist with your children?

No I mean there's a choice, the way I see it.

You either live in a big city surrounded by people who cover or you move away to any area where this is rare (rural Northumberland or Dorset say).

If you choose to stay in a big city and raise your DC surrounded by women and girls who cover then, as much as you might have an issue with the covering, as a feminist, then you MUST respect the choice to cover and raise your DC with that dual input. "Yas and her mum believe god wants them to cover their hair. I don't believe god wants that but they do. It is part of how they choose to practise their religion and we must have utmost respect for that" etc.

As such, you don't avoid or shun or swerve people on the basis of that religious practice. Or the chaperoning or anything else.

To raise children in the city on any other basis is doing them a dis-service and leaving them badly equipped IMVHO.

And I am just saying there is a slightly colonial (or maybe just high-handed) flavour to the stance of saying "I disapprove of halal, of covering or of chaperoning so I will not allow my DC to attend those houses".

It is saying that your western values are superior.

So your TL/DR is

My personal prejudice should be ignored because if we wait long enough government/regulations should sort the problem out, yet we can't discuss the problems because we are colonialist.

Your mental gymnastics is impressive considering you acknowledge your views could be considered racist.