The problem with my daughter's Muslim school friends - or rather their parents

[Jules2]

I wonder if anyone else has experienced/is experiencing this problem. My 10-year-old daughter goes to a Haringey junior school with a fairly high number of Muslim children - the make up approx. 50% of her class of 28. Her group of friends in school are mostly Muslim girls. But unfortunately (with a couple of very occasional exceptions) these poor girls do not seem to be allowed to mix with non-Muslims outside of school hours. Over the years, invitations to come to our house to play, or come to parties have been rejected with many an implausible excuse. My DD has gone to maybe a couple of parties held by her friends in 5+ years of school. Weekends are taken up with Islamic school for the most part - or they stay at home. They are not allowed to go to the cinema, swimming or whatever with non-Muslims. I find it incredibly frustrating and annoying to see my daughter upset because she is unable to socialise with these girls outside of school. She doesn't understand why - and neither do I really. The school is fond of billing itself as a multicultural, inclusive school but the message doesn't seem to have gotten through to this section of the population. I'm afraid I have started to believe that if immigrants to this country - from any racial or religious background - do not want their children to mix with children from other ethnic/religious backgrounds (including British-born children), then maybe they have chosen the wrong country to come and live in. (My DD is half Chinese, by the way - but born here.) I'd be happy to hear from some Muslim parents with a different attitude - I hope there are some out there.

I mustn't respect it at all, let alone give the utmost respect. I can say, this is what some women believe, and it's wrong. I don't have to respect it, and I don't have to encourage it and condone it. Why do I? I wouldn't mix with people who march for the BNP either. I don't respect those views, and I don't want to condone them. My children have lots of contact with people of different nationalities and religions, they always have, but not when the values are so radically different.

I don't acknowledge my views are racist - they're not raciwt at all. It's much more racist to want to go up to say a Somali Muslim and start educating them about why they're wrong, which is what you're suggesting.

I mean, that's outrageous. That's just saying 'our views are better' right to someone's face. If you want to show someone respect, that's not how to do it.

Women fought hard in this country for the right to vote and have freedom to work and wear clothes that do not fully cover our bodies. Erode that if you want, but I refuse to.

No one has said you have to condone it. You just have to acknowledge it is their choice and as they get older explain more what your issues are with it. Can you not see that a blanket ban can only lead to more ignorance and fear? Education is the key.

No one is eroding it, don't be so dramatic. What do YOU personally intend to do about it then?

I think religious belief and practice should always be respected until/unless it is actively harmful.

I think at the moment the potential harm from DC not mixing with each other is great, and should be avoided.

I don't really see how you are 'encouraging' peoples cultural practices by allowing your DC to visit them . I eat, dress, read, sing what I do regardless of which DC visit my house.

Women fought hard in this country for the right to vote and have freedom to work and wear clothes that do not fully cover our bodies. Erode that if you want, but I refuse to.

I agree, we fought hard for our freedoms. But I am baffled that allowing children to socialise constitutes an erosion of those rights. Can you explain Cherries ?

I think the covering women is actively harmful though. Not going to stop anyone doing it, but I reserve the right to explain to my kids that it might not be the women's choice, that it represents women having to take control for men who can't control themselves, that it's double standards because men don't cover, etc etc. I wouldn't really want to risk mine then repeating that to the children, that would be unkind and superior.

Great Baker!!

We'll keep the children apart and eyeing each other fear and pity.

Bloody marvellous

children are fairly perceptive, I'm sure they will form their own opinions.

Until recently my dc were at a school in the ME with many muslim children. We were invited to everything, and covered or not, muslim parents were pretty much the same as anyone else. I never found it an issue to arrange things because of religion or cultural differences, although I did question Christmas once and the lady in question laughed and said " they love presents and so do I! We will come for your Christmas dinner and we will see you at eid:)"

Islamic studies was done in school time though, and I guess having to do it outside school in the UK creates less time. They don't have as much family time left, and also have family commitments, like anyone might, and if you both work full time, free famiy time is even more scarce.

Perhaps you could ask your school to invite a few muslim parents or any religion culture including brits! you have tbh at your school ( maybe and international day and once a month after of closed box questions) and dc to volunteer for a Muslim sounding board or something, and encourage questions both ways. Respectful and educational.

I think the covering women is actively harmful though.

I think that not putting suncream on your child is actively harmful, feeding your child McDonalds every day or letting your 6 year old stay up until 10pm.. But I wouldnt stop my child pkaying with these children. I would expkain to my child that everybody is different and has different ways of doing things.
The only time id have a problem would be if they tried to say that my child was wrong for doing what she did or push their views onto her. And i wouldnt try to make suggestions to parents as to how they raise their children.
Children will encounter diferent ways of life however much as a parent you disagree with it, they need to form their own oppinions based on having a rounded view of the world

Am a little baffled by the idea that covering one's head and wearing clothes that cover your body is automatically 'harmful,' oppressive etc

As a non-Muslim woman I feel quite oppressed by a lot of what not covering your body and hair involves.

For most people wearing shorts or short skirts involves time-consuming depilation. Then there's waxing a bikini line. Having your head hair on show means feeling obliged to have it washed and cut. A lot of people will say it's their choice - their form of liberation - to express themselves via how they present their bodies to the world.

Equally I think it can be liberating, not to be exposing so much of yourself to people.

There are also rules about how Muslim are meant to dress. They too are meant to clothe themselves modestly. So there is a code for both sexes.

Lavender the suggestion of inviting Muslim parents is nice, but it sort of assumes all Muslim parents/people are the same, which I would say could be seen as a form of prejudice. The Muslim parents in the OP have problems with non-Muslims, it seems, but I don't have the same problem but opposite. You can't put all Muslims 'in the same box', in the same way you couldn't put all Christians in the same box, fundamentalist evangelicals, Catholics, middle-of-the road Anglicans, etc. Doing that is the start of bigotry. We should recognise that everyone is different. Some people in every religion are particularly strict. Marianne that's a whole other debate, but I suppose I don't want my children to learn that I condone the idea that women having to cover up is as normal as eating Macdonalds or not wearing suncream.

Anyway I was only saying I don't think you can get cross with the Muslim parents in the OP - if they dislike different values, then there isn't a lot anyone can do about it, and nobody can be forced to mix with people they don't want to.

Sorry to reply so early, I was knackered last night and now I'm awake too early.

Hiya. I find this very strange as I am a muslim woman and i would allow my child to play with non-muslim children (I have alot of multi cultured friends myself actually). I would like to add that Islam does not promote racism.
Also I wear a head scarf and no I am not being oppressed as I CHOSE to wear it. The head scarf is worn around males other than your husband, dad, brothers or other male family members. How is it oppression when I conceal and reveal what I want to and I want to choose to be modest? Lol

And also forgot to add that I love my religion but I actually respect other people's religions and cultures as "to each their own."
I think all muslims should not b put into the same box as in every culture and religion there are different types of people and no-one would like to be generalised

sensible post Mary:)

How is it oppression when I conceal and reveal what I want to and I want to choose to be modest? Lol
I think it's oppression because it applies one rule to the men and another to the women, and the rules are much stricter for women: how is that fair? I have seen Muslim women completely covered, except for their hands and eyes, sitting watching male family members swim (wearing only long loose swimming trunks). I think that is oppressive, though I am sure those women would say they chose to cover up like that.

And am I, walking down the street with my hair uncovered, NOT modest?

Marya, I know it sounds as if I am having a go. I'm not. I am just completely baffled, and not for want of thinking about this issue, either.

*The area around Gleneagles road and the surrounding high street has been called little Mogadishu for a while now.

Behind the new ice rink? By who? UKIP?*

Arsenic - actually I've lived in the area for years now. About 10-15 years ago when Somalians moved in it was called "Little Somalia" rather the Mogadishu (Little Mogadishu) but to be honest round there is a real melting pot. Everything from Jamaicans etc to Somalians.

The one thing I used to notice in the old Morrisons was they sold Kosher butter etc (when it was Sainsbos) not sure if they do now and down Streatham High Street (near Streatham Hill) there were one or two Jewish butchers now been redeveloped. I don't know if any Jewish produce is sold locally now but I just googled and they still have a liberal synagogue in that area.

But it's certainly not a BNIP phrase/area by any stretch of the imaginiation!

Lavender what you say is so true and rings true with me re the festivals. I worked with an Iraqui woman (didn't seem overly religious but never really asked) and when I mentioned Christmas she said "oh we do the same at Eid, exchange presents, bright sparkly lights etc". She's now married to a white I assume Christian man and they do celebrate both Christmas and Eid with both sets of families.

my immediately family are predominantly white but my daughters best friend is muslim but she came to my dds birthday party last year ( with 3 of her brothers who hadnt been invited). I didnt realise that so many wouldnt socialise?? They even took the day off islamic school specially.
Im sorry this hasnt been your experience. Maybe you need to get to know the parents more first?

How is it oppression when I conceal and reveal what I want to and I want to choose to be modest? Lol
I think it's oppression because it applies one rule to the men and another to the women, and the rules are much stricter for women: how is that fair?

It works the same way in the UK, in non-religious settings. Women are expected to remove body hair. They're expected to style their hair, conceal signs of aging, wear underwear that simultaneously conceals and emphasises their upper body shape. In many contexts they'll be expected to wear make-up, and quite possibly to wear shoes that are uncomfortable and limit their mobility. (Similarly to reveal/conceal depilated legs by wearing 'nude' coloured nylon tights.)

These rules are stricter than the rules governing men's appearance.

It maybe that we have internalised these rules. We might think that they're natural and/or that we have free choice and are actually making our own decisons. But they're rule all the same.

Not really Marianne because people are making choices out of what they want to wear, to feel like and and what they want to look like, not what their religion requires. It's not that males are making women wear it (though sometimes they do I understand) it's that the religious rules require them to wear it. I don't think women should have to cover up under religious rules.

By the way obeying a religious rule is different from conforming to conventions. Like, you could wear biker stuff at weekends because that's your thing, but bland office wear during the day to conform. Or of course you could get a job in a biker bar and wear what you like all the time. But but one chooses what one chooses - if you choose the job, you choose the convention.