The problem with my daughter's Muslim school friends - or rather their parents

[Jules2]

I wonder if anyone else has experienced/is experiencing this problem. My 10-year-old daughter goes to a Haringey junior school with a fairly high number of Muslim children - the make up approx. 50% of her class of 28. Her group of friends in school are mostly Muslim girls. But unfortunately (with a couple of very occasional exceptions) these poor girls do not seem to be allowed to mix with non-Muslims outside of school hours. Over the years, invitations to come to our house to play, or come to parties have been rejected with many an implausible excuse. My DD has gone to maybe a couple of parties held by her friends in 5+ years of school. Weekends are taken up with Islamic school for the most part - or they stay at home. They are not allowed to go to the cinema, swimming or whatever with non-Muslims. I find it incredibly frustrating and annoying to see my daughter upset because she is unable to socialise with these girls outside of school. She doesn't understand why - and neither do I really. The school is fond of billing itself as a multicultural, inclusive school but the message doesn't seem to have gotten through to this section of the population. I'm afraid I have started to believe that if immigrants to this country - from any racial or religious background - do not want their children to mix with children from other ethnic/religious backgrounds (including British-born children), then maybe they have chosen the wrong country to come and live in. (My DD is half Chinese, by the way - but born here.) I'd be happy to hear from some Muslim parents with a different attitude - I hope there are some out there.

I see what you're saying Baker and I suppose i'm still puzzled about it and wondering aloud about it, because one has those dietary conversations and gets the measure of who is 'nice' with well-behaved children etc anyway...

And let's be honest, this isn't about Islam. I've had loads of Muslim friends of various cultures over the years and eaten with them, been in and out of each others homes etc (ane been considered lucky on account of my blue eyes and handed babies to hold etc ). This is a subset of muslim cultures.

Yes yes we all make judgements all the time. I don't know about subsets though, do you mean Shia or Sunni muslim?

No I mean insular.

But they may not be insular, they may be incredibly sociable. Just not in the way you want.

Conservative.

I also think the English are the same, in my experience they are happy to keep to themselves and not too keen to establish new friends with foreigners. (The adults) There are exceptions of course

This is true but up to a point. I've moved a lot and most of my friends, when the DCs were young, were made through the primary school, the DMs of their classmates.

I think 'want' is a bit strong.

I just feel sad. And scared actually, for the next generations. The only way that a multi-cultutral society can truly work is if everyone is truly participating and mixing.

But as I've said, there is nothing to be done. In individual cases it is hard to be 100% sure of the reason that a child is turning down invitations (unless they brightly tell you, which they sometimes do).

I was just refuting the blanket insistence upthread that it doesn't happen. It does and it is sad for the children involved IMHO.

I totally agree with you that it does happen. It does make me sad too, but I would concede that someone like me may be part of the problem; I don't want my children to accept (for example) that it's normal that women should cover and men don't have to, so I don't want them socialising in an environment like that with my 'apparent' approval. What the Muslim families think is the other side of the same coin. I suppose we are rejecting each other's values. But it's live and let live all the same, just a bit of a shrug of the shoulders that it's a shame.

It does make me sad too, but I would concede that someone like me may be part of the problem; I don't want my children to accept (for example) that it's normal that women should cover and men don't have to, so I don't want them socialising in an environment like that with my 'apparent' approval. What the Muslim families think is the other side of the same coin. I suppose we are rejecting each other's values.

I don't follow that line of reasoning. By playing/socialising/visiting you are not condoning or endorsing values - just accepting and respecting them.

We all need to do that anyway, if we are living side by side, don't we?

Yes but i don't respect the idea that women are subservient or should cover up, and it's different for children. It does endorse the values. It just becomes normal for them, they learn that it's normal. It shouldn't be normal that women have to cover up and men don't. At the same time it's none of my business to go round trying to change people's minds or religion and evangelise that my values are 'better', I wouldn't be happy if people did that to me - tried to persuade me that I should cover up or eat halal, so it's best to just let it lie.

Anyway it's Saturday night! I'm off to cook.

To me frustrated, that makes you exactly like the Muslims who keep their children away from mine because they don't agree with how we live. Makes it an endless cycle.

Thank you for those who have explained to me why they think Aryan Germans feared/were made to fear those 'rich' and 'different' Jewish people. (NB Jews were of all economic/social classes in Germany, and in Weimar Germany, the majority of Jews were not 'separate'. Many did not practise their faith at all and were pretty secular.)

There just do seem to have been such an awful lot of people who National Socialists were afraid of. All those rich powerful disabled people. The rich powerful communists. The rich powerful Roma people. Rich powerful Jehovahs Witnesses. Rich powerful homosexuals... How terribly frightened the Germans must have felt as they herded all these strong powerful people into the gas chambers.

Yes I accept that but I wouldn't really be sure what you would want. You can't have a Crusade in the playground. And an endless cycle of what? People getting on with their lives?

No one mentioned a "crusade", more acceptance and children not being unhappy and told they're not the right sort of person at the age of 6.

I think baker is being astute here with her views, if she posted them earlier on in the thread or another thread she would have been accused of racism, which it kind of is, yet it's not mentioned if the roles are reversed as in this thread.

But I disagree with the premise that we should just ignore and not question values because religion is involved. Isolation and ghettoisation causes problems and in the true British tradition everyone and everything is up for ridicule.

But I don't accept those values. If girl children are covered I want my children to know it's wrong. I don't want to tell them they should accept and understand it. But there's no way I'm going to challenge it. That would be absolutely none of my business. So it's easier just to steer clear. I agree with you though, I wouldn't ever say 'that's not the right sort of child'. That would be very wrong. It's just different paths.

Justanotherlurker, I'm not any kind of racist. It's different when there are Muslim friends who don't cover up for example and who you can talk to about halal/non-halal. I'm not sure how these views are at all racist, it's more to do with values. Ironically, if one of the children had a friend whose parents had vocal racist views, I wouldn't want mine mixing with them either. It's the same principle.

It took several years to get to the point of gassing those who didn't meet the standard, Marianne. The German people were pretty desperate when the Nazis got into power and the first thing they experienced was material improvements in their lifestyles, before people who were other started to be singled out for jeopardising it all. A lot of German civilians were kept in the dark about the concentration camps and gas chambers for quite a while. It might look like a very short period with the benefit of 8 decades of hindsight, and what the Nazis were doing might seem so obvious to us, now, but it wasn't to your average German, in the 30s.

I don't think you're a racist, but I don't agree with your viewpoint. It's absolutely fine not to accept aspects of another culture but I think there are ways of talking to children about it and educating them without segregation. I think you're the same as those Muslim parents who segregate us and if you're happy with that, fine. Personally I am glad not to be that kind of person.

I find it really hard to accept that halal meat is the issue (whatever your stance - if you have it or don't have it) Everyone is capable of offering vegetarian food or fish fingers.
People who want to segregate will do so regardless.

Nicki I totally think they should be educated together, absolutely, in a totally neutral way. That is so true. That's the future and it's the only hope. But as per talking to the children, I can't tell mine that the way the other kids are being brought up is wrong, but we don't say it out loud and we keep it a secret. Maybe I'm just not very good at explaining things. But as I say it's not like my children have a monocultural environment, their friends are quite a few different nationalities and religions. I don't feel segregated. It's only when there are values that I cannot in any way accept or endorse.

I'm not accusing you of racism as such, start a new thread where you state you don't want your child mixing with people who believe in full face covering of females and a religious ritual for meat slaughter (paraphrasing your posts) because you don't agree with them and watch the results.

Yes and please do it in AIBU?

I see what you mean now. Thank you, Ok well I'm definitely not going to do that! It's an interesting conversation but I don't want a big fight!

Well I manage to talk to my children about such things without telling them it's wrong or to keep it a secret, it's quite simple, usually things like, "some people think differently to us but we can still like them and be friends, even if we don't always agree with them." As they get older they begin to understand for themselves and form their own opinions. You don't have to sit a 7 year old down and say "well I don't agree with women wearing the hijab think it is controlling of women but don't tell anyone that's what we think". If you're open and when they ask tell them what you think without being emotive they will pick this stuff up.