Toddler and newborn...How??? Support thread?

[Suchanamateur]

I am in the very early days of having a newborn (9 days old) and an almost 2 yr old DS and am seriously struggling at the thought of DH going back to work in the next few days - for a number of reasons. I had a taste of it yesterday when DH had to go into the office, unexpectedly, for much of the day.

DS is an absolute joy and I totally loved the few weeks of maternity leave pre DD when we just hung out all week. But now he is in total Mummy rejection mode and terribly teary. Utterly understandable but quite upsetting.

DD is a sweet little froggy newborn, doing froggy newborn things - eating, sometimes sleeping - and mostly at inconvenient times. I had a really awful time in the early months of my DS and the scars run deep (plus PND) - so every time I can get her to nap, I can feel huge waves of anxiety washing over me. I know they are different children, but I can't help project into a future where she doesn't sleep, night or day, and wonder how I will manage - I used to walk DS in a sling for hours and hours outside but that isn't an option with two of them. It was only at around 6 months when we did some sleep training that thing started to even out a bit with DS, and then got wonderful and I understood how you might actually enjoy being a mother. Six months seems an age away!

DD is currently cluster feeding without stop from about 5/6 until 10 ish. I can just about handle the clustering later in the evening, but I've got no idea how I handle DS dinner, bath and bed with a baby clamped to me and DS saying 'Mummy no' at everything..

I know pretty much the answer to all this is grit teeth, ride it through and this too shall pass. But wondering if anyone in a similar situation wanted to join in to help it pass? Or provide wise words and comfort from somewhere out the other side?

YY to all Grumpla and Loopy say. Much the best thing to deal with stuff upfront. I know it can be difficult to seperate the sleep deprivation from the feeling low, but often enough they are part of the same package - one a catalyst for the other, combined with the raging change in hormones. I have a meltdown at least once every 3 days- helps me let off some steam as much as anything.

When I had PND with DS1, the change once is asked for help, admitted it to myself and family and then, in my case, gone on ADs, was immense. Nothing in my external circumstances had changed and I was still violently sleep deprived, but I started to feel that I could manage it better, and the days felt a little less bleak and hopeless. I shall be putting my doc on warning when I go for my six week check next week.

Nothing hugely positive to report here undortunately. A less screamy evening but still hourly wake ups. This can't be normal- not when it's been going on 3 weeks. I will sef discuss reflux with my doc next week- I think something must be bothering her- she's certainly not always waking from hunger. She's also woken up with her brothers cold so that will be fun..

Hope you're feeling better this morning Twinkle . Suchan is right, it's really hard to separate the sleep deprivation and general hard work from anything else. In some ways I feel that having had MH ishoos in the past has actually been an advantage - has enabled me to assess my mental state, try and head off the real warning signs. I sort of know how tired / stressed I can get & cope with before it tips me over into a real depressive state IYKWIM? I think the danger is that you get so locked into that "head down, keep plodding on, keep everything looking normal" that you actually end up in a state where it is really hard to turn things around - whereas if you intervene earlier then sometimes what you need to make it feel better is much more easily achievable (a few hours extra sleep, a proper talk with someone, some time alone, a proper meal)

Anyway, being kind to yourself is great advice. Remember that being a "good mother" means being "good enough" NOT having to be an "always fabulous, Disney princess, constantly crafting, running through meadows in a long white dress" sort of mother. At this stage I really do think that "good enough" basically means everyone in the house is fed and mostly dressed, that if you have rows you make up afterwards, that CBeebies is better to stare at than a wall.

Ok-ish night last night, I rolled into bed and slept like a drunk log until about 3, when I had to kick DH awake to feed DS2. Then woke again with DS2 snorting at 4.30 but managed to settle him back down a couple of times until giving up and bringing him downstairs about 5.45 and have been up since then.

Feels weird doing all this dummy and settling business, with DS1 we just plugged a bottle in which he drained, then he was straight back to sleep. None of this sicking up and burping business to contend with, or wanting a feed every hour! Still, I saw my very nice health visitor yesterday and she said a lot of the restless second half of the night stuff is probably down to his shocking cold& once that clears up we should see an improvement. Gives me hope! It's strange how different they are - I suppose I had thought they would have different personalities but it also seems like the actual "babycare" aspect of it is really different as well.

I'm attempting to take dS2 on the bus to town today, hoping to meet a friend for lunch, but nervous as he hasn't poo'd for 24 hours... Luckily DH is working from home today and has agreed to be emergency getaway vehicle if we need rescuing! Fingers x'ed for us please... I will be taking full changes of clothing and a HazMat suit just in case...

Good luck! We're on day 6 of no poo having had a weeks worth explosion in the park last Friday. Carry around constant change of clothes for all!

Twinkle hope things are better with you today. I quite often feel like I'm on a treadmill with my two - especially if we're just mooching about. Agree with letting everything else go; I feel that as long as none of us are sitting in a corner, rocking, then we're doing ok. I feel constantly guilty that I'm not giving either of them enough attention and that I'm shouting more and more at ds, and I shoudl know from work, that shouting that much isn't effective.

Tired today as dd was wet when she woke up for a feed, which meant middle of teh night nappy change and wide awake baby.

On the plus side, I've been in to work and it looks like I'll be allowed to drop some hours next year. Won't translate into a day off or probably even an afternoon off, but if it means I get evenings and weekends back; it'll do me.

That's great news Astro re work hours, makes such a difference when you feel like you have a balance. I'm not looking forward to going back to work, I didn't want to last time either but it was fine so I know it will be okay, but I knew we'd be trying for a second and I'd get more time at home with them, this time around I know it's the last. I know it's the reality almost everyone faces and I know it'll be fine but I miss my little boys already at the thought of it and I've still got a few months to go...

I think it's worse when you think about going back. It's fine when you're there. I had to stop myself panicking when I was in work today; so muc h has changed and I don' t think I'll ever understand it. But I felt exactly the same last time. Once I switch into work mode and start thinking faster again, it won't seem so daunting.

PS Looby, does your knee still hurt after your fall? Mine's been 3 weeks down and I still can't kneel down wthout my left knee hurting. Won't look on the internet because the thought of things wrong with your knees makes me feel sick!

Ah, the days when falling over just resulted in a big bruise and a battered ego. If this is what it's like at 30odd, no wonder old people worry about falling over.

< marks place before it drops off my list>

Good news Astr0. And hello Penguin marker- was wondering where you were. Hope all ok and that silence is because 2 is now a doddle, rather than the opposite.

I had a nice day with DD today while DS at nursery. However am now having a very screamy evening. I'm sure I read somewhere that crying peaks at 6-8 weeks. I do hope that's true or I shall have to invest in an earplug manufacturer. My heart goes out to those who have to deal with proper colic. This is pretty wearing. That must be abysmal.

DP works late tonight, so I've just collapsted onto the couch after a long shift with both kids, wine in hand. Ok day in the morning going to the shops, looooong afternoon at home dividing my time between unsettled DS and well meaning but overactive DD. I feel like all I've said all day is 'watch out, be careful, don't do that, listen to mummy, put that down....' Broken record and all that.

Twinkle - I've got no experience with depression or PND, but I just wanted to send you a big hug and stress what everyone else said, grab all the help you can get and be nice to yourself. I would say now is the time to say halt and see the GP, not when you're further down this road and even more frustrated and exhausted. I always stretch myself to breaking point, when I should learn to see breaking point coming and stop myself before I hit it.

Regarding work, I'll be honest, I kinda look forward to going back. Checked into work email this week just to remind myself of my past life as a human being, and found it quite nice. I'll obviously enjoy ML as much as I can, but the idea of having my brain to myself for a few days a week is quite appealing.

Thanks for your messages of support, everyone. Have spent the majority of today in bed with DS2 both of us trying to sleep off this virus! Thankfully my lovely parents took DS1 all day which really gave me the break I needed. In DS2's defence he sleeps pretty well at night so I can't blame my mood swings on sleep deprivation. More, it's just frustration at not being able to split myself in two! Don't feel that I can ask my parents to do it more though. It's coincidence that my dad was off on leave today, so was an extra pair of hands as my mum has arthritis and looks after my DN when my sis works.

Re: ADs, can I have them while continuing to bf? I thought you couldn't. Probably should look into CBT but it sounds like such hard work, which quite frankly I can do without right now.

DH is really supportive but doesn't seem to think that pnd can even be a possibility. He seems to think that sort of thing happens to other people, not us.

astr0, great news on your job! suchan, the reflux thing sounds awful. :(

Thanks again to everyone who responded. I am going to focus on fighting off this awful virus and see if that helps. If not, then hi-ho, it's to the gp I go!

Evening all. I finally got fed up with having a baby on my boob the entire evening so DS2 has been bathed and bedded at the same time as his big brother, and is in his night-time basket upstairs in our room

Fingers crossed...

twinkle there is a AD you can take while bfing- it's called Setraline. Made a huge difference to me.

TBH don't know if evening screaming is necessarily reflux related or ifits just end of day meltdown. But maybe if others don't get it, then it is something particular. That's part of what I find so difficult about this stage- is it just newborn crying/ shit sleeping luck and you just have to suck it up, or is there something underlying? If only they had a yes/ no button. But speaking to gp next week so will see if she has magic bullet.

mistressploppy hope you get a baby boob free evening. Stuff dreams are made of..

Astr0 yes it does still hurt, it's not red and infected looking anymore though thankfully. DH rolled over in bed last night while I was feeding DS2 and knocked it really hard, it was SO sore! I've avoided googling knee infections because I didn't want to freak myself out. You're right though, it does make you wonder what we'll be like when we're older!

Twinkle, glad you're feeling a bit better today and that you had the chance to get a break. My CBT is not too onerous, it took a couple of months from when I was referred to them to actually getting an appointment. It's four sessions of guided self help. I see the therapist bi-weekly and in between have material on topics of my choice to read and a short workbook exercise to complete which we talk through in the next session. Doesn't take too long and I've found it a good way to be honest with myself and work through key issues.

The therapist also helps me identify key things to think about or do that will help me. It's been helpful to focus on myself and to get a bit of perspective on things. She stresses to me every session how much of a difficult time of life this is and that it's completely normal to be finding it tough - something I've really realised since joining this thread too. Not sure about ADs and breastfeeding, I think I've read before that there are some that are ok to take but others might have more of an idea than me.

X-post Suchan. Not sure if this helps but I've been reading about wind buildup across the course of the day (Tizzie Hall again) - her advice is to wind your baby every 30ml or 3 minutes if bf, apparently the wind builds up every time you feed them otherwise. DS1 had colic and it was horrible and we tried something similar with him but it didn't help, but it has helped with DS2. Thought it was worth a mention anyway, just in case :)

Crying uncontrollably here, just need to let out all the frustration I'm feeling inside. DH has gone off skiing for 4 days leaving me to look after DD1 (20 months) and DD2 who is now just 8 weeks. It's not the first time I've taken care of them alone but having got them both to sleep now and having time to think about how my beloved DD1 has turned into a monster has really upset me.

When I think about what a perfect little angel she was until the day I bought home DD2 makes me feel like I'm in mourning, that's how strong my emotions are at present.

Every day this week I have taken DC out for at least 4 hours a day to enjoy the beautiful weather. I'm exhausted for it but have enjoyed it. Still the violence from DD1 towards the newborn doesn't stop.

Just today, Having got the newborn to sleep I kept DD1 with me in the kitchen the whole time whilst trying to cook the evening meal (not easy to keep her entertained) but the moment I took my eye off her she ran to newborn, climbed on the sofa and lay on top of her/hit her/leant on her until she woke up screaming. I warned her not to but she did this repeatedly until I had a situation where dinner was burning while I ran down to rescue newborn from clutches of DD1 and then having seen that the crying baby is getting my attention, DD1 proceeds to cry even louder. When I ignore her she starts pulling her own hair and slapping her own face!!

What kind of a mother am I that I have turned my darling daughter into this? I can't stop crying, I really feel like I need some help. I mentioned it to the G.P. on weds when I was there for new baby check up and it was just fobbed off as "normal" behaviour but I can't live with this, it is not normal and she was never a violent child. She has never gone to nursery so can't have picked it up from other kids.

I spent 4 days in hospital when DD2 was born and have often remarked that it was a much needed break and a good chance for me to bond with DD2, but now I feel that actually, all that did was permanently scar my daughter who has only ever spent one night without me prior to then.

Sorry for the rant, just feel so emotional. I was prepared for some challenges in parenthood, but not for my children hating each other.

Oh MrsSippee, sending hugs your way. Your day sounds really tough and it's SO much harder having to do it all on your own when they are that little. Is there anyone else who can help you while your DH is away, or even just come over for company in the evenings so you have some adult conversation and the opportunity to vent a bit in RL?

If your GP isn't taking you seriously do you have a health visitor who can support you or refer you to further support?

Also, re-reading your message, (am up feeding DS2 and didn't want to not reply to you properly) I don't think it's your fault your DD1 is behaving like this. She is still very young herself and you are obviously an amazing mother to her to have raised a daughter who has such a strong bond with you.

From what we have experienced with DS1 being violent toward DS2 I think it's all about them adjusting to not being the complete centre of attention all the time and not being old enough to understand why so they take out their frustration but also act out on the thing that's taking your attention away. Over time DS1 has stopped lashing out at DS2 and instead loves the attention he gets from DS2 now tht he's older and more interactive. Also the attention we've paid and the explanations and telling off for hitting his brother seems to have sunk in (DS1 is 22 months older than DS2 and is now 2.3). He does still throw the odd truck at DS2's head but he is much, much better behaved and happier than he was a couple of months ago.

I hope you are okay and can get some rest tonight.

Ach MrsSippee that sounds really tough.

I've been lucky so far in that all of DS1's violence since DS2 has arrived has been directed at me rather than the baby. But I have several friends who have been in exactly the same position as you, I really don't think it is uncommon.

Have you got a safe place to put DD2 so she is out of DD1's reach? I have the pram up permanently for this purpose (think it also helps that it is in the hall, I keep the doors ajar with rubber stopper things steady so can always hear DS2 instantly but when am reading / playing with DS1 he is not always in the same room which I think helps DS1 feel really focused on.

The other thing I have been doing when DS1's games get very noisy / exuberant is tell him "Hey DS1, I'm really enjoying playing with you, but if we wake DS2 up I might have to go and make his milk. Let's play quietly, DS2 will stay asleep and we can play for longer."

However my DS1 is a lot older than your DD1 so that kind of verbal reasoning might be a bit beyond her. Do you already have consequences for violence? We always try to be really consistent on having a time out for hitting (mainly because this gives me a chance to calm down, it really upsets me) and this has definitely helped. The hair pulling etc - hard as it is, I really think you need to ignore that. A friend of mine had a child who at around 20 months learned to vomit on demand - only stopped doing so when they stopped reacting (obviously they still changed clothes, bedding etc but didn't shriek / talk about it etc!)

Hope things get easier for you soon.

Twinkle glad to hear you managed to rest a little. If you have the same virus we've had then you have my sympathies! I found that every time I felt a bit better and tried to do anything remotely energetic I got worse again so do take it easy even when you feel on the mend!

DS2 has caught his brother's vomiting bug :( He fed every 1.5hrs in the night. Since 4am I've been vomited over four times, done two full loads of washing and been to a+e to get him checked over cos he's not keeping anything down and there was a lot of blood in his vomit but I think that's probably from my cracked nipple.

He is ok so far, the dr was reassuring enough, just have to ride it out, give fluids as much as possible and keep an eye on him. DS1 thankfully seems to be ok now after a few days of it (lets hope the washing machine holds out!), really hoping DS2 doesn't get the fever part his brother had as well. Have a feeling it's going to be another day of lots of TV for DS1...

The stars are most definitely not aligned properly for some of us lately, are they? Here's hoping that April won't be the cruellest month, and that people get some respite.

If it's any consolation, Mrs, I hear lots of stories about older siblings reacting badly to new arrivals to start with, and it's nothing to do with how their paretns treated them etc. A friend of dh found his older one in the garden, digging a hole to put the baby in .

20 months is still a baby really, so all credit to you for coping with ultimately, two babies. Don't forget, many older siblings go through phases where they hate each other. I was vile to my younger sister for years towards my teens. My mother was devastated; she'd always wanted a sister and coudln't understand why we were so awful to one another.

Maybe we all need to disinfect our computers too, this vomity virus seems to be spreading.

Hope everyone gets well soon

I have just been for the 6wk check (although DS2 is nearly 8wks ). Feels like another milestone. I do feel guilty for wishing the early days away though....

Thank you all for the reassuring messages. It really does help a lot to know that there others like me out there and that it is possible to overcome this - I was really beginning to feel that there was no end in sight as DD1's behaviour only seems to be worsening at present.

I think I am being somewhat inconsistent in my dealings with her. Normally I do just reprimand her after she's hit the newborn by telling her it is wrong and removing her from the situation. But I read on MN that rather than focussing on the child who has attacked it is better to give attention to victim so that child learns that aggression doesn't result in attention. However, I think this may have made matters worse for DD1 who seems even more frustrated that she is not being heard or understood. I think I will return to my former response and continue to tell her that hitting is not acceptable. Yesterday I actually smacked her bottom I was so angry, then I phoned my mum to tell all as I was so upset with myself. She sensibly advised me to calm down and then deal with both kids nicely (not in as patronising a way as this sounds though!).

I have tried to explain to DD1 that when she hits baby and wakes her that it will mean my attention will have to be diverted away from her, but she is too young to understand I think.

I do think there is a correlation between the amount of attention DD1 gets from and the degree of violence exhibited. But with DH away there is no way I can allow her to be the sole recipient of my attention for any length of time.

Thanks to all once again, feeling hopeful again that this will pass :-)

Aaargh DS1 just woke after twenty minutes of a two-hour nap by vomiting EVERYWHERE!

This had better be a one-off caused by coughing and not YOUR VIRUS what you have all been spreading

Dd1 so much better this week post bday celebrations. It came at a perfect time I think. She's still insanely energetic with a tendency to stroppiness but that's just her!

I am getting increasingly tired though. Just longing for the weekend now. Friday seems a day to wish away at the moment!

Cannot imagine dealing with vomit now. We have got conjunctivitis here though so spend a lot if my time chasing people around with eye drops!

Grumpla I really hope it's not the same virus, I've been projectile vomited over seven times today so definitely not feeling my most attractive