Unconditional Parenting Support thread

[tillymama]

This thread is a safe place for those of us who have read the book and are trying to implement these ideas into our family lives.

It is also a place where people who are interested in the concept of Unconditional Parenting can find out more, and ask questions from those of us who use it day-to-day.

This is not a place to debate whether or not UP is the best thing since sliced bread, or a laughable concept. If you wish to debate, please start your own thread.

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Good starting points for people wanting to know what UP is all about:

The principles of UP
Alfie Kohn's website
Buy the book!

On 1 I do apologise but say it was my turn and he could choose next time, and if he had a tantrum just let him have it and use normal coping techniques e.g. distract, ignore, etc. But TBH with my DS after a couple of times of this he didn't seem to mind and just accepted it, which made me go because the "Oh well sorry it was mummy's turn" was just something to say in an attempt to acknowledge he was upset and try to explain other than "tough", I didn't think it would really make a difference.

On 2 I'd probably accept but be really thankful and encourage DS to say thank you as well. But I think you use your judgement each time. It would probably be more based on whether I thought people on the bus were judging me or not rather than any parenting ideals though

7 and 8 if practical then yes. But if he's getting too big for it then probably you need a more practical solution than "wait until he grows out of it". Reins?

If the hair is short enough, food sweats out when they sleep. I sound like a terrible terrible parent admitting this. The problem is that DS' hair is too long now and he has cradle cap which is building up which I think is causing the smell. I think a trip to the swimming pool is in order (once his hair is cut. Or before.) since he always gets his hair wet then, and I don't much mind if he's terrified of the swimming pool showers because they are high pressure so they are quick, and I can accustom him to the one at home later.

The diluted shampoo does work quite well too. He doesn't (didn't) mind me soaping it up, it's the rinsing he hates, and he won't lie back and play mermaids which I saw suggested on here once.

Anyway he's just woken up so I'm really going to bed now :)

So on 1 no I wouldn't turn around. Sorry.

DS' hair is quite long so when he gets food in it I have to wash it. I wet a flannel in the soapy bath water and do it that way which is the least traumatising it seems. Might be worth a try to see if that will be enough to get rid of his doggy smell

I am glad I spoke to you about UP. I have tried to do it half heartedly for a couple of years but always thought UP was about avoiding the tantrum and doing everything the child's way as much as possible which I never felt right about with things like personal care and suncream and letting the child choose when to walk/leave etc so they don't have a tantrum which just never seemed practical to me.

I do use reins but then we get the sitting on the floor and refusing to walk problem and also in shops sometimes I have to loose them to look at things or pay and that's when he grabs his oppurtunity!

I just wanted to add one random thing: with the sun cream we have had great success with using the suncream as face paint: they get to choose which animal they're going to be today - I tend to suggest white animals (!!) - polar bears, white rabbits, white cats, the such-like! Then I paint their faces as that animal with the suncream (a white polar bear nose, white ears etc.). Then occasionally they've wanted to look in the mirror and then after they've looked then I let them rub it all over their face. After the first few times it didn't matter to them whether the animal was white - tigers were a great one with stripes of suncream over their faces - as I say, as long as you do the animal at the beginning, they don't mind you "filling in the gaps" or them rubbing it into the gaps.
Just an idea, we got through one summer on this one and then after that DD was ok about just doing her own suncream. DS is now coming to the age to enjoy the face painting.

1. what do you do when a DC is doing something destructive/unacceptable etc, such as hitting you, throwing things till they break etc, without threatening or isolating them, or similar??

Remove yourself from the situation, just like you did - I would do exacctly the same

1. DS likes to go a particular way home (both in the car and walking)

If it's really important to the child, I would go with it. If it means running half the way, that's what I would offer, either implicitly or exlicitly. That's a picking your battles thing for me - prob quicker to get home the preferred way than to go the "wrong" way with a mega tantrum

2. DS likes to choose his seat on the bus and has a tantrum if someone is sat on it.

I would be totally explicit as you get on the bus "oh dear, X, what a pity, someone else is sitting in the seat you like best. Where shall we choose to sit instead today?" and then if the person offers the seat, you shower them with grateful thanks.

3. DS wants to walk through the park with no shoes and socks on but there is often broken glass in the park. Do I make him put his shoes on which will result in a tantrum or do I let him walk through the park barefoot and risk him treading on broken glass?

Barefoot in a "don't tread on the ants" game - everyone carefully watching where his feet are and if there is broken glass, point it out, put it in a bag. In fact, how about a clean-up walk in bare feet where you scope out the area to be walked in together, and then he can walk barefoot?

4. In the winter it was bitterly cold and snowing and DS wanted to wear shorts, a tshirt and sunglasses. I didn't let him but he screamed for 2 hours solid. Should I have just let him go outside dressed like that?

Oh god, yes, every time. With warm clothes in your bag. Or in your hand. It only takes a few mins in the cold for child to realise that they need more clothing. coat in hand stops old ladies tutting - you can say something breezy about other people's thermostats, and any minute now the coat will go on.

5. It's not a problem yet but DS refuses to wear a sun hat and sun cream

I have given up on hat and sun cream with my entire family. Noone likes wearing it. We grow hair a bit longer to compensate (protects ears and face); offer sun glasses on bright ways; aim at cool trousers and long sleeved tshirts if acceptable to the child.

6. We also have tantrums when it comes to washing. This includes wiping hands and face, baths, showers, hair washing, brushing teeth, nappy changes and now changing clothes he has had accidents in cos he's not in nappies during the day. I have tried bath puppets, bath toys, bath crayons, making a game out of it, distracting him with singing, getting him to do it as fast as he can etc but nothing has worked. We only have a bath and hair wash once a week but even top and tailing in the morning and at night results in him screaming blue murder.

This really sounds like a sensory issue. Warm baby wipes in microwave? Go swimming or to a paddling pool instead? I think the longest one of mine has been without any washing (beyond wiping bum with wet wipes) is 8 weeks. The world did not come to an end.

Stop washing the hair, for the love of God. None of us wash our hair at all. It takes about 6 weeks for the oils to find their natural balance (and for the smell to settle down into something genuinely human but not unpleasant). I wash my hair in water and give it a good scratch to get the dead skin off my scalp, but none of my children even bother with that tbh - it just gets wet incidentally on some occasions.

And stop trying to get him in the bath. Get in a bath yourself, of comfortable temperature, and play with his toys yourself. If he leans over the edge to join in, that's a hand wash and a success story. If he doesn't you are modelling how you think baths could be fun. Don't push it. (remember, I have done the 8-week gap between baths thing, I have made all the mistakes in the book on this one...)

7. Running around in inappropiate places and running away from me in shops. Do I just restrain him (which would definitely result in a tantrum) if he won't stop when I ask him to and explain why?

We have toddler reins with a luggage label on them with child's name and parents' mobile numbers. they certainly fit a 4 year old (must look for some in an older child's size)

It is very likely a sensory overwhelm issue again, IMO. Choose your shops with great care - outdoor markets where possible. Consider investing in ear defendors, sun glasses, and maybe learning how to calm your child with deep pressure.

You may need to hire a teenager. They run with the child. When they are out of sight, the teen catches the child, "come on, we have to find Mummy", brings them back. They gradually (over a period of months) make the distance before stopping shorter and shorter. This is a great way of helping a runner learn road safety as well - the teen stops them by the road and just keeps saying "hold hands with mummy to cross the road; hold hands with mummy to cross the road" till you arrive.

8. Refusal to leave somewhere despite giving a countdown.

For now, I'd be working really hard to have time so you don't have to leave in a hurry. Get him and you both used to his "I've had enough, let's go" signals. This might involve having the kind of childcare that can meet you at the park. That would mean that a trip somehwere wasn't tinged with anxiety about when it would end.

And then, without time pressure, you could on some occasions try out things the child would like better. "Stay at the park or go to the shop to find some star wars cards?" (and then oyu are on your way home). Ice cream is of course a trump card that can be played multiple times. :)

Simic, I remember in The No Cry Sleep Solution she suggests an older child can have a special mattress in the corner of your room. You explain they should try and stay in their own bedroom as mummy and daddy are very tired. If they can't they are allowed to creep in and sleep on the special mattress so long as they don't wake anyone up.

Don't know if it works, dc1 is still a baby but might give you the odd peaceful night.

Hi,
I'm not sure why I have only just found this thread but am glad I did.
I fully intend to read the book as I am increasingly unhappy with the way things are going with DS who is 9. I feel like our relationship is taking a nose dive and am looking for a way to rectify this. He feels dreadfully misunderstood alot of the time.

Is 9 too old to change things?
Can I turn things around at this stage?
I just wondered if any of you had experience of UP with older children and is it something that you can introduce this far down the line?

On the hat issue, for DD if she doesn't want to wear the hat then I sometimes offer to wear it - "you don't want to wear it? Shall I wear it then?" - sometimes she says no and wants it back, if not I make a big deal out of being silly and trying to get it to fit on my head, then say something like... "oh dear, is mummy's head too big for the hat? It's not going to be very good at keeping my head safe from the sun is it... Can we find a better hat for mummy?" Then pretend I can't find my hat til DD finds it for me, then she gets to put my hat on my head, I thank her and say how glad I am my hat will keep me safe. Then I ask her again if I can put her hat on to keep her head safe, usually she then lets me... I don't know if that would work for a 4 year old though...

Thanks BertieB for the blog, will have a look. Likewise Justalittleblackraincloud!

I agree with ommward, BTW, in that if you remember before the trip starts I would go his way, but if I'd already started going another way, then I use the "It was mummy's turn" line. I did it this morning with the toaster - DS likes to press the button down, so I let him do it first, but the second time I did it without thinking. He went "Waaaaa ah ah ah ah" and I said "Oh I'm sorry, it was Mummy's turn." he went quiet and just skipped off to do something else. Then the third time I went to lift him up to do it and he said "No, my mummy do it"

You're right in that UP/GD in general (I don't know about strict UP because I never finished the book...) isn't about letting them get their own way all the time, or never ever upsetting them. Sometimes it is necessary to do things which might upset them. It's just about seeing discipline not as a battle but as a study or as a learning curve. Everything that you do is discipline - e.g. the way you speak to them models the way you expect them to speak. People are always surprised that when DS says "Thank you" to me I say "You're welcome" rather than "Good boy" - but then when someone says thank you to him he says "You're welcome" which always tickles them. I wanted it to be an automatic habit for him to say please and thank you so I have always modelled it from an early age. Another example - the way you approach conflict shows them how to approach conflict. If you always say Right I Am The Boss, then that (IMO) fosters one of two responses - either competitiveness/aggression/always trying to be the one in charge, or the opposite, being a walkover and unable to challenge anybody ever. Which is fine when they are at school and listening to teachers, or at home and listening to you, but what happens if they fall in with a bad crowd at school? Or in their adult life, there will be times when they need to be able to challenge authority. The one I struggle with is shouting when I'm exasperated - usually through tiredness, but sometimes not. But I try to remember to apologise for shouting. DS sometimes says to me "Don't shout, Mummy" and I like that he is able to say that to me. Once I caught myself saying "Just go to sleep then!" and I thought oh no, that sounds awful - I'm being conditional ie whether I shout or not is conditional on his behaviour. And it's not, he could behave exactly the same when I wasn't tired and I wouldn't shout. So my shouting is more to do with me than it is him. Which isn't to say that I should never ever shout, but perhaps just present it in a different way. I don't want him to think "I'll shout if you don't do X" is a good way of negotiating with someone.

I'll come back to this later because we are supposed to be going out :) Welcome Foofffy! I'm afraid I only have a 2 year old, but a very good starting point would be How To Talk So Kids Will Listen, and Listen So Kids Will Talk. The view it presents isn't totally anti-punishment, it's more focused on using it as little as possible and offers alternatives etc. So you could start with that and move away from the way you are doing things now to a more co-operative way. 9 must be hard, I know a lot of girls are now starting puberty around that time, so it follows that boys must be experiencing hormone changes as well. I think that UP etc works better when they are older anyway than traditional rewards and punishments which quite often get harder to enforce as they get bigger and stronger than you. You can't put a 15 year old on the naughty step

Sorry - italic fail.

Yes, sorry Fooffy, my two are too small to be able to help you, but the book Bertie suggests is very good, and I think there is another one by the same people called "How to talk so teens will listen" which depending on how mature your 9 yr old is may be worth a look too...

I agree, just finished "How to Talk..." and it is about talking it through and asking for their ideas to solve problems, acknowledging their feelings.

I think it would really help with a 9 yr old. I actually found it quite frustrating as ds is only 9 months so he doesn't have many constructive things to say yet!

Thanks bertie and wildhood
It crossed my mind that puberty might be a contributor as he already 5ft at 9 and seems to be very easily close to tears at the slightest issue.

I shall try the books that you have suggested as I think I really need a fresh way to approach our relationship. Hopefully he will then follow on from me.

Am back briefly while DD naps and DS is happy amusing himself - does anyone have any suggestions how to deal with "bossiness" in a 2 yr old? DD increasingly gets cross if DH and I need to talk to each other and will shout "STOP TALKING!!" or just randomly will shout at me to "STOP IT MUMMY!!" (even if "it" is something she just asked me to do, like sing a song).

The example with the talking is about attention-seeking I think, but I tell her I need to talk to Daddy and will talk to her in a minute, but it doesn't seem to work. If it's a shouted 'stop it' because I'm say, singing or something else non-essential, then I do stop and tell her I'm a bit sad because I wanted to sing but I'll stop if it upsets her, what shall we do instead etc... I'm not sure if it's becoming a "routine" with her - we watch Octonauts before bathtime and she'll ask me to dance to the music at the start, but then instantly tell me to stop, and this happens every night, and she gets upset if I don't dance but then shouts at me when I do and it just seems to be a sort of game in that respect.

I don't know where she has picked it up from, possibly nursery, other kids at toddler groups, who knows - but it's an awful tone of voice she uses, really contemptuous, if you can imagine that in a 2 year old! And I don't like being spoken to like that and I'm pretty sure we don't speak to her like that at home. Not sure how I get her to understand the rudeness though, or if I should be pandering to her demands, is this going to reinforce things?

Haven't been on this thread for a while so just had a quick read through and have a couple of suggestions learnt from bitter mistakes that may help people -

Hair washing - water pistols in the garden in the summer with lots of running around/screaming etc. In the winter water pistols in the bath. My DD1 loves this and doesn't seem to notice that her hair gets wet :-) Obviously the caregiver involved gets very very wet as well.

Medicine - my DD2 has to have Gaviscon three times daily and HATES it. I have finally discovered that if her teddy has medicine first and then her she is usually more co-operative. Shes only 1 but gives teddy medicine with relish and i think that helps with the whole powerlessness. Shes likely to be on this till shes 3 so I'm going to make a book too as that is a great idea.

Chunder no advice I'm afraid, my DD1 does exactly the same (she actually said on the bus the other day, mummy is too silly to be with me - thought I had a few years yet!) but I just say OK I'm doing X for DD2 not you. I'm hoping she'll outgrow it

Does anyone have any tips for dealing with "false" crying? My DD is almost 21mo, and for the last few days has been quite sensitive and easily upset. That is fine, and she is getting lots of cuddles and comfort whilst she works through it.

But it's becoming something that rolls on and on for up to a hour. Something happens, she's upset, I validate and reassure, we have a cuddle and all is well. But then someone else talks to her, or something falls over, or she drops something, and we're back in the land of despair again. But it's quite a "fake" moany cry with added shrieking. I know her cries, and this really does seem put on. I do feel bad for saying that!

I'm really struggling to stay calm and present with her during these episodes. Even though I know there is obviously an underlying reason for this new behaviour. I've tried treating it as if she was genuinely upset (so comfort and time with me to talk it through/hug it out), and distraction. And neither really seem to work.

Can anyone help me with a UP spin on this so I can try and understand where she's at?

NappyAddict, would your 4 yr old tantrum without fail in all the situations you outlined on Thursday. Or is it just a question of certain times of day? One of my children is quite a tantrummer and at the age of 4 would tantrum nearly every time things didn't go her way. Sometimes you just can't avoid them eg with the bus example, it isn't reasonable to expect someone else to adapt to her wishes (although if they did, I would probably accept the offer and say that's very kind, thanks). Over the last couple of years I have focussed a lot on teaching herself to assert herself more calmly and to express her anger in a slightly less toddler like way! Two years later she is getting there but it is still a challenge when she is tired and hungry (but to be honest I struggle with staying calm when tired and hungry myself!!)

Only got time to read one post at the moment so will get back to anyone else that has replied later :)

ommmward

Do your children not burn without sun cream? He usually wears over the knee shorts and tshirts down to his elbows but I worry his legs and bottoms of his arms will burn when we have hot summers in the late 20s.

I don't wash his hair with shampoo, I usually try to do the wet flannel thing. How often do your children wash their hair with water? When you did the 8 weeks with no washing did you manage to get their face/hands wiped? DS would be totally encrusted with old food if I did that - he's a very messy eater still!

With 1) if you were going to be really late for work or an important appointment would you still go the way the child wants, or would you just pick them up or put them in the pushchair and carry on?

With 8) I suppose I should aim to leave 15-30 mins before we actually need to, then if he does tantrum I have leeway.

Justalittle - she might be a bit young, but I have said to DS "I don't like that noise, it's giving me a headache." and then after offering cuddles etc I will move into another room if he's still shrieking. Similarly if he is whining I ask him to speak in a normal voice because I can't understand him, even if I can, I know he's capable of speaking clearly - although sometimes he needs a bit of time to calm down before he can, I wouldn't penalise him for this.

As long as you aren't denying their feelings, I don't think there is anything wrong with asking them to express them in a less annoying way. After all you would do similar with anger - ie no you may not hit, but you can do X or Y. One emotion isn't more valid than another :)

hello nappyaddict

do your children not burn without sun cream?

iHe usually wears over the knee shorts and tshirts down to his elbows but I worry his legs and bottoms of his arms will burn when we have hot summers in the late 20s.
I'd have to say no... this my be to do wih the kind of "summer"we've had the lats couple of years. and in my mind the fact that's in my own childhood I only ever put on suncream if I was going to be out All Day. In fact I distinctly remember the first time I ever wore sun cream 9on a skiing trip aged 11)

How often do your children wash their hair with water?

some of 'em once a week or so. some of 'em never.

When you did the 8 weeks with no washing did you manage to get their face/hands wiped?

yes, either with a flannel or with a wet wipe. sometimes when said child was heavily asleep.

With 1) if you were going to be really late for work or an important appointment would you still go the way the child wants, or would you just pick them up or put them in the pushchair and carry on?

if i have a meeting, I don't take the children out without a massive safety net of time. So I wouldn't actually be in the situation you describe I don't think. And I always always have the final solution safety net that my childcare can come and meet us wherever we are (perhaps a bit grumpily, so I don't use that trump card more than once a month or less)

I wouldn't usually but sometimes DS' medical appointments cut it very fine with getting back in time for work cos they nearly always run over!! I have rung my mum before to come and meet us as we're on the way home but by the time she'd got herself sorted we were back anyway! I usually pre-warn work there is a possibility I might be late but they still get funny about it.

I've got another sad saga of me and my almost 6-year-old DS, I'm afraid, that I'd be most grateful for any advice with. Sorry, it'll be long ... I mentioned upthread that he was lashing out, kicking and hitting, and today got even worse. On the way home from school, we separated from the friends we'd been walking with to go different ways, and he suddenly said "I want to watch TV when I get home!" We really don't do TV, and I said no (my first mistake, I guess; should I have been more vague and said "We'll see!" or something, in the hope that he would have forgotten by the time we arrived home?)

He kept repeating that he wanted to, and eventually wouldn't cross a road: "I'm NOT going home unless I can watch TV!" ... etc etc. Well, I wasn't in a hurry, and it was dry(!) so I thought I had plenty of time to let him calm down, so I just sat down on a wall, studied my phone and let him harumph and be indignant and (I thought) get it out of his system. He was nudging up against me on the wall, a bit aggressively but I just ignored it.

He threatened to cross the road by himself but I knew he wouldn't.

He finally got fed up and deigned to hold my hand to cross, though he was pulling my arm in all sorts of directions. At this point, still on the kerb, I told him to look me in the eye and said that he was to cross sensibly and hold my hand normally - I wasn't going to have any "antics" (for want of a better word) while crossing a road. That was the only time I got confrontational.

The rest of the way home, he followed about twelve miles behind me(!) and every time I looked round he slowed to a painful shuffle. No problem with that. But when we got home, tbh I can't remember the exact sequence of events, but he persisted in kicking, hitting and punching both me and DP. We had things to do, a plumber coming round, and we couldn't just all go and sit hiding in a locked room while DS threw things against the door! So in the end ... I put him in the bathroom and held the door closed. Please tell me what I should have done differently - I know it's totally unacceptable, but then I couldn't continue to just let him punch me!!

I honestly can't believe I have a child who behaves like this - I was an only child and there was no conflict at all when I was growing up, and I just arrogantly assumed that I would be the kind of parent whose child would never hit or kick.

When he had calmed down we talked about it, but tbh he gave a pretty flippant "sorry". And I just don't know what to do after that. I was still stewing - you could even say sulking at him for his behaviour, which is childish of me, I know - but I just never feel that I find the right words to say to him in these situations, and his offhand apology wasn't good enough - I wanted him to recognise and be upset at his shocking behaviour. More or less all I could think of was stuff like "Hitting is wrong!" to which he replied "No! Hitting is right!" I don't think the word "sorry" is the be-all and end-all, especially if it's not sincere, but I wanted our talk to have affected him in some way, you know? But no.

After this, DP is all for trying threats and punishments the next time it happens. I know they would work, of course they would: "If you hit me again, you can't go swimming on Saturday". He would stop instantly. But I know it's not the right way to do things. My UP convictions are wavering - please convince me I can work things out in other ways!

Sorry this is so long, but the last thing that happened was just really cruel of me and I feel disgusted with myself when I think of it. As he was going to bed, I took up a picture that he'd drawn yesterday, of me, with "I Luv Mummy" written on it. I said something awful like "You can't really love mummy, can you, if you hit and kick and hurt me like that?" He started crying and said "I feel sad that you said I don't love you, I do!" Bingo, I'd finally got the reaction I wanted - the remorse. And now I feel like crap for wringing it out of him.

I'd be so grateful if someone could take me through this and tell me what I should have done. My lovely wee boy deserves better parenting than this. Thanks and well done if you got through it all!

Sorry I can't help but am intereste in opinions about whether it's better to give an honest answer if you know the answer is going to be a no or try to fob them off, with maybe, we'll see, later etc.