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Original poster

Are there any feminists out there?

214 replies

roundwindow · 12/04/2009 21:51

And if so, where are you all hiding?!

Maybe I hang out in the wrong places, but since I left university (and later since I left London where I had a quite lefty arty-farty public sector job) I just feel like I'm the only feminist left on the planet.

I used to think my parents were hideously conservative and archaic with all their 'oh you and your women's lib' responses to my values. But maybe it's just the world of grown-ups?

What made me think about this was that I was recently reading Trinny and Susannah's 'What your clothes say about you' book and the section on new mums seemed so jaw-droppingly misogynist (sp?) to me. 'Pity your poor husband when you don't make an effort, don't be surprised when he leaves you for someone more interesting.... don't even think about wearing flats!' etc etc. And yet this is mainstream, this ideology is everywhere. Makes me so

And the culture in all the gossip magazines, where no young female seems to ever be accepted on her merits and it's all about what she looks like or how undignified her behavour is.

So any other proud-to-be-feminists out there? Tell me what you're thinking about!

OP posts:
ItsMargotBeaurEGGarde · 13/04/2009 17:39

Can I just point this out, because astonishingly, some posters need to be reminded of this ..... many, many, many people have unfulfilling jobs. This is a huge fact of life which doctors, solicitors, architects, engineers and so on probably find hard to wrap their heads around.

It's not something particular to women. It is an economic reality that not every person (of either gender) can have a well-paid, fulfilling job. There will always be a well-paid layer on the top of society who have lots of money and lots of choices.

TheButterflyOeuffect · 13/04/2009 17:40

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TheButterflyOeuffect · 13/04/2009 17:41

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ChairmumMiaow · 13/04/2009 18:04

I haven't read the whole thread, and I'm not at all sure what a feminist is these days.

As a computer scientist I have always lived as a woman in a mans world, and TBH I have thrived on it. I have fought to be recognised as an equal among my peers. Sometimes I won, sometimes I didn't but I learnt about how to fight the attitudes I encountered.

It seems that whatever we, as women, do these days is wrong, and of less value than whatever the men around us are doing. I struggled to be taken seriously when I was working in the computer industry, and now as a (by choice) SAHM I certainly don't get taken seriously (but actually don't care because I know I am doing the right thing for us)

Does that make me a feminist?

ChairmumMiaow · 13/04/2009 18:07

I guess I should also say that I have a very equal relationship with my DH - responsibilities are divided based on skills and time available, not gender. My DH was brought up in a house full of women and has never exhibited the slightest bit of sexism, so its sometimes easy to ignore the way things are for other people.

Shambolic · 13/04/2009 18:22

DP - most of that is being done already?

daftpunk · 13/04/2009 18:44

i thought it was?

we have family friendly work policies

we have sex education/contraception (do we still have worst teenage pregnancy rate in europe?... not sure?) if we do, i don't know why.

domestic violence is being taken more seriously

rape...not sure?

pornography/prostitution...not sure?

TheButterflyOeuffect · 13/04/2009 18:56

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Shambolic · 13/04/2009 20:17

I really think that lip service is paid to these issues but nothing really changes (except maybe incredibly slowly).

Women now have the right to ask for flexible working if they have small children. Well whoop de doo. We have the right to ask our employer a question? Hardly earth shattering.

They have to think about our request. Again, no big bonanza. As far as I can see the ones saying yes are the ones who would have done so anyway, while the ones saying no are perfectly entitled to say no.

Not really that huge a leap when you look at it like that.

Something I get a bee in my bonnet about!

Sex education isn't all that from what I hear either, a lot about mechanics and nothing much about real life (ie vs the porn they're all watching) and relationships and so on. Happy to be set straight on that score though...

I could go on and on...

I think people like to pretend that things are done while really nothing changes.

And while the planet is run by rich powerful men I don't see how anything can change

daftpunk · 13/04/2009 20:35

i think the teenage pregnancy issue is more to do with lack of ambition than lack of contraception/sex education..

tbh shambolic, some things will never change, women have the babies, that will always hold us back (if that's the right phraseology)..the maternal instinct, women give up brilliant careers to stay at home.

Shambolic · 13/04/2009 20:58

It won't hold us back if society is reconstructed so that earning power isn't the be all and end all and the contribution that women make to society both in the workplace and in the home is properly recognised

solidgoldshaggingbunnies · 13/04/2009 21:53

ONe of the big problems is that the post-industrial-revolution society depends on women's unpaid work to function. The working model of that society is that men go out of the house to work in paid employment, women, in exchange for being 'kept' (ie fed and housed) by men, do all the domestic work, all the service work, take care of the elderly and raise the children: all this being dressed up as 'love' and 'duty' and basically what women are for. Now a few decades ago enough women noticed that they had the shitty end of the stick here and said 'Enough'. At present we have a situation where probably the vast majority of people would rather spend less of their time in (badly)paid work and more of it on personal stuff, whether that's raising children, caring for other dependent family members, seeing the world or writing poetry, but a combination of low wages for most jobs, ridiculously high cost of housing etc means that most people have to spend most of their time at work (and if they are women they are more likely to have to spend most of their free time picking up after men).

Callipygia · 14/04/2009 08:28

But working-class women have always worked, in vast numbers - the relative luxury of domestic drudgery in the home has always been the preserve of the lower middle classes (anyone 'higher up' having had paid help).

georgimama · 14/04/2009 09:13

The contribution women make whether renumerated or not should of course be equally recognised, I just fear that the pendulum is swinging back the other way, and that now as well as being a lousy mother if you go out to work you are somehow seen as downtrodden to boot.

Callipygia and SGB are both completely right (although they appear to be saying different things they aren't I don't think) - women have always worked in vast numbers but mostly in low paid menial work which means they were/are for the main part financially dependent on men for keep, and in return were expected to do the domestic drudgery. This has been dressed up as being feminine/nurturing/caring to stop us complaining.

daftpunk · 14/04/2009 09:33

men have always been out hunting/gathering while women care for the children, that's nature...and works well for most people.

and of course women have always worked, pre-industrial revolution they worked the farms....women working is nothing new, we just have alot more rights now.

not sure mens attitudes have changed that much

georgimama · 14/04/2009 09:35

Lots of things are "natural" dp - did you eat your placenta? That's "natural". Doesn't mean we should all do it.

Callipygia · 14/04/2009 09:37

Women in hunter-gatherer societies did a lot more than childcare (most of the gathering, for starters). Hunting tends to be a rare outing in these societies, and men tend to do a lot of childcare as well. Of course it varies but if you look at societies that still fit the hunter-gatherer model, it's nowhere near as simple as "men hunt, women do childcare".

daftpunk · 14/04/2009 09:39

georgimama.....tell me something, only you & me here..(whisper it if you like)

would you rather be a sahm?

sometimes i'd love to have an exciting job to escape to.

georgimama · 14/04/2009 09:42

I would rather be a SAHM if we had so much money that I was completely financially independent of my husband.

That is no reflection of him or a lack of trust in him (although it may be the result of a lack of trust in men in general, as my father left my mother when I was 12, and she was screwed for money temporarily although thanks to the fact she had had a career before children she was able to support herself and us).

Life being as it is, I would rather work. I'd quite like to work part time but that isn't practicable at the moment.

daftpunk · 14/04/2009 09:48

it worries me sometimes that i'm financially dependant on dh...he has always given me plenty of money...never asks what im doing with it, but if he left me i'd be totally screwed.

2009...and women are still so dependant on men.....how far we've come.

georgimama · 14/04/2009 09:51

Exactly dp, it might not happen to you, it might not happen to me, but a cursory glance at "relationships" on this board will show you what a mess many many women are left in because their husbands leave them, or even worse the shit they have to put up with because they feel unable to leave a man they really should leave because of money.

If that worries you, even just on behalf of other women, you must be a feminist.

daftpunk · 14/04/2009 10:04

yes gm, i have read some of the relationship threads, and i'm always left feeling really sad or angry...it's terrible what some women are still putting up with.

Quattrocento · 14/04/2009 10:05

"2009...and women are still so dependant on men.....how far we've come."

Ahem. Think you meant 'and some women are still so dependent on men'

daftpunk · 14/04/2009 10:25

quattro;

i have 4 dc, i would never have got a job that paid me enough, childcare alone would have been £1500 a month.

the only women who arn't financially dependant on men are women who never have children (or maybe have one) or women who have £100,000 a year jobs.

Callipygia · 14/04/2009 11:11

I'm a SAHM. I don't see myself as 'dependent'. DH and I contribute differently to the family, though there is overlap. If he were to bugger off, I have earning power.

'Dependent' suggests a degree of subjugation which I do not feel. He would be horrified if I did feel that.