Are there any feminists out there?

[roundwindow]

And if so, where are you all hiding?!

Maybe I hang out in the wrong places, but since I left university (and later since I left London where I had a quite lefty arty-farty public sector job) I just feel like I'm the only feminist left on the planet.

I used to think my parents were hideously conservative and archaic with all their 'oh you and your women's lib' responses to my values. But maybe it's just the world of grown-ups?

What made me think about this was that I was recently reading Trinny and Susannah's 'What your clothes say about you' book and the section on new mums seemed so jaw-droppingly misogynist (sp?) to me. 'Pity your poor husband when you don't make an effort, don't be surprised when he leaves you for someone more interesting.... don't even think about wearing flats!' etc etc. And yet this is mainstream, this ideology is everywhere. Makes me so

And the culture in all the gossip magazines, where no young female seems to ever be accepted on her merits and it's all about what she looks like or how undignified her behavour is.

So any other proud-to-be-feminists out there? Tell me what you're thinking about!

For sure I would not have wanted to be a sahm? It's sloppy thinking to imagine that because one's own career is unfulfilling the same applies to everyone else. I actually need work to function properly and effectively.

No question mark intended in last post.

I agree with you Shambolic. Transferable maternity/paternity leaves and rights to part-time working enshrined for all parents, also affordable childcare meaning that more people (principally women) have real choices.

I'd man the barricades for that.

Agree with Quattro that these types of generalisations about "what women want" are unhelpful to say the least.

Also agree with quattro's very nicely worded post of 16:57 where she agrees with me

Personally I couldn't put up with a man who didn't do his fair share of household work as well.

if you're both working f/t yes, you have to share housework..but if you're a sahm then no.

Butterfly a less linear approach?

Sounds very sensible.

The other thing I find depressing is that we (in RL and on MN) end up discussing things like housework in great depth and detail (sorry DP) and when we're not doing that we're squabbling about SAHM/WOHM etc. All this does is a. make us seem petty and b. deflects us from the real issues.

So we never get anywhere.

i'm a sahm, dh works f/t....how could i expect him to come home and start doing housework or cooking?...i've been at home all day.

shambolic...what are the real issues?

Shambolic - I completely agree with you. That's exactly what I believe, and exactly why I am - and have always been - a feminist.

But in terms of what this takes, it will need more than just transferable paternity leave and pensions and so on and so forth, it will need a radical change in our value systems. We need to be able to see looking after children as 'proper' work (sometimes I have problems doing this myself...), we need to not assume that financially valued is the same as worthwhile (although I think the current banking crisis has gone some way to proving that).

And, most of all, we need work that women can do without pretending to be men - work that fits round school, children, life and so on but is still seen as being as valuable as What Men Do.

I sometimes think that (taking out things like medicine, contraception etc) I would have loved to be the mistress of a large medieval farm. My work - the vegetables, the distilling, the house - was as valuable a part of the household economy as my husband's, without either of us the whole system fell apart. Not that this gets me very far, although I have just planted a few vegetables.

Quattrocentro. 2 way street, it's sloppy thinking to assume that every woman has the luxury of a fulfilling well-paid career that gives her the option to outsource childcare. That, statistically (feminism aside for a moment) isn't possible for every person.

You can't apply your rules to lower paid people. Feminism must work for all strata of society.

Something which Xenia and her 'ilk' fail to grasp time and time again.

Quattrocentro. 2 way street, it's sloppy thinking to assume that every woman has the luxury of a fulfilling well-paid career that gives her the option to outsource childcare. That, statistically (feminism aside for a moment) isn't possible for every person.

You can't apply your rules to lower paid people. Feminism must work for all strata of society.

Something which Xenia and her 'ilk' fail to grasp time and time again.

Quattrocentro. 2 way street, it's sloppy thinking to assume that every woman has the luxury of a fulfilling well-paid career that gives her the option to outsource childcare. That, statistically (feminism aside for a moment) isn't possible for every person.

You can't apply your rules to lower paid people. Feminism must work for all strata of society.

Something which Xenia and her 'ilk' fail to grasp time and time again.

"I would have loved to be the mistress of a large medieval farm. My work - the vegetables, the distilling, the house - was as valuable a part of the household economy as my husband's, without either of us the whole system fell apart. Not that this gets me very far, although I have just planted a few vegetables. "

You could say the same about cleaning the loo or doing the laundry, doesn't make it any more fulfilling.

For me I would start with:

Getting rid of rape myths and getting it taken more seriously as a huge problem. Ditto domestic violence.

Changing the working culture so that it is "family friendly" that men can take on childcare without being penalised, that women can have children and good careers, not just the exceptional few but all of us

I would do something about the "pornification", about the proliferation of sexualised images of women and girls that we are surrounded with

I would strengthen laws protecting women in the sex industry and come down very very hard on people who exploit women/girls/anyone really

Improve sex education and access to contraception etc

Erm, that's a start I think...

Who cleans the bog would come along after that lot somewhere, but hopefully would start to sort itself as women took a more visible and respected place in society...

Butterfly;....yes, i work quite hard at home...i have 4 dc, i have always done most of the housework on my own...dh will cook most nights, but he has never cleaned the bathroom/toilet or anything like that.

I really am the mistress of a large medieval farm....

shambolic...most of that is being done already