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Original poster

Are there any feminists out there?

214 replies

roundwindow · 12/04/2009 21:51

And if so, where are you all hiding?!

Maybe I hang out in the wrong places, but since I left university (and later since I left London where I had a quite lefty arty-farty public sector job) I just feel like I'm the only feminist left on the planet.

I used to think my parents were hideously conservative and archaic with all their 'oh you and your women's lib' responses to my values. But maybe it's just the world of grown-ups?

What made me think about this was that I was recently reading Trinny and Susannah's 'What your clothes say about you' book and the section on new mums seemed so jaw-droppingly misogynist (sp?) to me. 'Pity your poor husband when you don't make an effort, don't be surprised when he leaves you for someone more interesting.... don't even think about wearing flats!' etc etc. And yet this is mainstream, this ideology is everywhere. Makes me so

And the culture in all the gossip magazines, where no young female seems to ever be accepted on her merits and it's all about what she looks like or how undignified her behavour is.

So any other proud-to-be-feminists out there? Tell me what you're thinking about!

OP posts:
ShellingPeas · 12/04/2009 22:30

I would describe myself as a feminist as I believe that women and men are equal and have an equal worth in work, homelife and society as a whole. God forbid that we ever return to the social niceties of the 50s or before where women were to be seen as pretty accessories, and not heard at all.

However, I've probably lost many of my hardcore feminist principles of my youth where I swore I would never stop working to have children and be a 'homemaker'! I was a SAHM mum for 5 years and now have my own business, but it was at the expense of a lucrative career in London. If you'd told me at the age of 20 that at 40 I'd be changing nappies and have no income, I'd have laughed at you.

But, DH and myself share jobs around the house - you're as likely to find me putting up a fence or doing DIY as you are to find DH reading stories to the DCs or taking them to the park.

I would hope that feminism now is about equality and valuing people for what they are and their life choices. And for women of all ages to have a sense of self-worth and self-respect, rather than be there to please their menfolk!

Off my soap box now.

CMOTdibbler · 12/04/2009 22:32

But you see it a lot on here that there is a significant proportion of the population who aren't equalist - they feel that possession of two X chromosomes mean that someone is ideally fitted to a particular role in life.

My big bugbear atm is things that are considered perfectly normal in the XY population (in my case travelling for work) are considered to be a huge problem for an XX person, and something to be commented on ceaselessly

Original poster
roundwindow · 12/04/2009 22:33

Muffle I'm so with you on the ingrained sexist stuff that women sign up to. You describe it perfectly.... and it's exactly what I'm experiencing right now with nearly all the RL mums I know. Like you, I was starting to wonder what was wrong with me that it bothers me so much. Lovely to meet you

OP posts:
muffle · 12/04/2009 22:33

I don't know margot but they are not!

If you think about women changing their name to their husband's - it is a blatant statement of inequality, yet most women, a good 80% I think, simply aren't bothered by that.

Pretty much everyone reasonably well-informed must know about the pay gap, and yet many intelligent women, including those who themselves earn and are victims of the pay gap, do not care enough to want to call themselves a feminist.

I think in these cases women are hugely ruled by the fear of being seen as "unfeminine" or ballbreaking.

CMOTdibbler · 12/04/2009 22:34

Sorry, should have read 'my big bugbear in RL'

And I think feminism is about being able to choose, and choose with all the information, about what you do with your life. Whether thats SAHM, city high flyer, or porn star

hester · 12/04/2009 22:34

Absolutely, roundwindow. One example: I've suggested, at a few dinner parties, that these days men who visit prostitutes must know - at some level - that there is a high chance that they are in effect committing rape (because of the level of trafficking, and the the impact of drugs - the cosy old concept of the 'tart with a heart' who freely chooses her work must be a distinct minority these days, if it wasn't always).

I think the point is unbeatable, actually. But it always goes down like a bucket of cold sick. Even in the circles I move in, it's somehow considered really hardline and unattractive to be criticising men's sexual choices.

muffle · 12/04/2009 22:36

roundwindow... you too! I think you'll like MN a lot.

ItsMargotBeaurEGGarde · 12/04/2009 22:37

Well, equal doesn't mean 'the same'. I think women are entitled to have different priorities (especially while they have young children) without having to consider their role inferior.

This is very MN usually divides. some women think that you have to be a man to be 'equal'. Some people are more equal than others sort of idealogy.

In my version of feminism, people are allowed to be women, and if being a woman is at times different to being a man that doesn't mean it is inferior.

nitemare · 12/04/2009 22:37

Yes I am,

ItsMargotBeaurEGGarde · 12/04/2009 22:39

Yes, I think a lot of women fear being labelled 'ball-breaking', a label usually flung around by some misogynist jerk that you wouldn't want on your christmas card list anyway. Wouldn't bother me if some insecure man wanted to call me a hairy lesbian because I expected the same pay for the same job and declined to take a husband's name.

KayHarker · 12/04/2009 22:40

Well, I'm quite happy that I took Dh's name - because the one I had before belonged to my father, which was even worse.

ShellingPeas · 12/04/2009 22:42

I agree with CMOT - it's choice that is real decider and freedom for women to choose what they want to do.

ItsMargotBeaurEGGarde · 12/04/2009 22:43

Hester, I'd love to go to a dinner party with you!

I never get invited to dinner parties though, as I am single...

muffle · 12/04/2009 22:46

Yes to me equality means equal treatment and opportunities and rights and respect, not being identical. (Same with equal rights for all ethnic groups and the disabled for example - it isn't about being the same, it's about getting equality whoever you are.)

However, I don;t think that any choice that a woman makes is necessarily a good choice (I don't think that about men either) and I do think that if a woman makes a choice to do something like be a lapdancer, have plastic surgery or stay with an abuser, it's worth thinking about the societal reasons why - I would not just say "her choice so as a feminist I must respect it". I think there is a deep connection between those things and other things like DV, the rape conviction rate, pornography, pay gap and so on. If women get the lifelong message, subtly and unsubtly, that they are not as worthy as men and that they can be treated as possessions and as objects, it sinks in and they perpetuate it themselves. It is this that I want to fight against - the whole set-up and they way sexism is perpetuated by both men and women.

muffle · 12/04/2009 22:49

(And I do include myself in that too - for example I still struggle to try to make sure I don't automatically do more housework than DP.)

Mumcentreplus · 12/04/2009 22:50

I'm a Liberal Feminist ... should I use the bunny ears?

ItsMargotBeaurEGGarde · 12/04/2009 22:53

Yes Muffle, she is objectifying all women, or encouraging men to objectify all women.

I disapprove (or at least it upsets me) to hear people liek Jodie Marsh mouthing off about how much money she's made.

Women are undervalued as people. As women, their value is how fuckable they are. As mothers though, for example, they have no value. Raising a future generation? You sap! you mugg! Get back to the office at once, you must be the one to make all the sacrafices for parenthood. To allow the other half of your team (husband) to cover the family/team's expenses for a year or two while pregnant/breastfeeding is seen as letting women down. This is because MOTHERs are worthless. Being fuckable is worht a lot more in today's society..

ItsMargotBeaurEGGarde · 12/04/2009 22:56

And the point I'm making is, if we truly had an equal footing in society (which we definitely don't yet) then we would be allowed to be different from men. We have to be the same to be equal at the moment.

ilovemydogandMrObama · 12/04/2009 23:00

I was reading an article by some centerfold model who posed naked for Playboy and she said she was a feminist; that it was her choice to pose nude...

It was quite an interesting point that she was making. First of all, that she felt the need to justify her decision. Second, that she was talking to other females, as most men don't really care about a woman's feminist qualifications.

And lastly, her definition of feminism is loosely based on what I consider that of education; the ability to choose based on a position of being able to evaluate all aspects independently and without bias.

hester · 12/04/2009 23:03

IMBG: you should have come to my birthday dinner party! Both couples and singles (I was about to write 'a nice mix of' but that implies I carefully thought through how to mix and match couples and singles, and I loathe that - I just invited people I like) and we rowed like happy foxes about everything on my list, fuelled by lots of alcohol and chocolate.

And afterwards I wondered why that happens so rarely. Even though these are my friends. It seems as though we've got out of the habit of having these conversations with each other.

ninah · 12/04/2009 23:07

sounds like a great party!
and I agree it is rare to have any kind of convivial if contentious debate

ilovemydogandMrObama · 12/04/2009 23:12

I like that: we have to be the same to be equal....

dittany · 12/04/2009 23:19

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

SuziSeis · 12/04/2009 23:22

oh yes oh yes

I believe

Earthymama · 12/04/2009 23:29

Iam a feminist, can't understand why anyone with an ounce of decency would not be!

I am lucky to have DP and DSIL who enjoy a healthy debate.