Are there any feminists out there?

[roundwindow]

And if so, where are you all hiding?!

Maybe I hang out in the wrong places, but since I left university (and later since I left London where I had a quite lefty arty-farty public sector job) I just feel like I'm the only feminist left on the planet.

I used to think my parents were hideously conservative and archaic with all their 'oh you and your women's lib' responses to my values. But maybe it's just the world of grown-ups?

What made me think about this was that I was recently reading Trinny and Susannah's 'What your clothes say about you' book and the section on new mums seemed so jaw-droppingly misogynist (sp?) to me. 'Pity your poor husband when you don't make an effort, don't be surprised when he leaves you for someone more interesting.... don't even think about wearing flats!' etc etc. And yet this is mainstream, this ideology is everywhere. Makes me so

And the culture in all the gossip magazines, where no young female seems to ever be accepted on her merits and it's all about what she looks like or how undignified her behavour is.

So any other proud-to-be-feminists out there? Tell me what you're thinking about!

Because of what dittany said.

Georgimama, but would you see it as progress, or feminism, to see a woman of very young children forced back to the workplace when she would rather be at home with her small children (not talking about older children).

The point is not whether the woman earns a big enough salary to smooth things over with the help she can afford to hire.... the point imo, is in many people's eyes, a sort of shame to being a mother, and just rolling with that for a couple of years.

I have not said that I view motherhood on a par with prostitution. I have said that in our society equality begins and ends with money, and until women are able to earn equal amounts in their own right, they will not be equal.

(sorry, didn't see dittanys post)

TRUE feminism will (amongst many other goals), value motherhood more than society does at present. Motherhood is not something shameful for thick people or low earners.

quattro;

i'm a sahm...i rely totally on my dh for money...i have always felt equal to him, we decided from day 1 that he would work & i would stay at home with the dc....it's never been a problem

I don't see it as unfeminist if financial constraints mean a couple have no choice but to both work. It's sad if she would rather be at home, but perhaps her partner would rather be at home too, and it is assumed (by and large) that if anyone becomes a full time at home parent, it will be the woman. There are SAHDs on MN but they are very very rare.

Without feminism the woman would never have had a job in the first place, or her employer would have assumed that when she got married or pregnant she would be leaving and not coming back. That's unfeminist.

You seem to assume that all mothers of young children who work are being forced into the situation. That isn't true, some choose to do so, and it seems to me that making that choice is coming to be seen as "unfeminist" as being a full time wife and mother would have been 20 years ago.

the truth is georgimama...and i know we've spoken about this before...but if a woman works, she will still do most of the childcare and housework.

That is by and large true dp, and it needs to change. But I don't take that as a reason why women should give up on the working part (if they want to work, women who have reached a happy concensus with their partner about the division of labour should of course do as they please). That seems to be the new feminist prescription - go back into the house, tell yourself its because you want to, therefore it's OK.

I don't really care what people choose to do, or have to do, but at the moment motherhood is definitely very undervalued.

georgimama, incredibly, as recently as 1974 in Ireland anyway, women had to give up jobs in banks, post offices or civil service when they got married. Just married, not even pregnant.

I'm not assuming anything. I'm pointing out that if somebody's ideal of feminism tries to gloss over the fact that women are different from men, and carries on promoting feminism only through being the same as men, then ultimately they are pissing in the wind.

What we need is a society where getting pregnant and needing a bit of time off isn't held against a woman, not just the woman (father should take some paternity leave too).

The ONLY way that women are going to be equal is if we can get society to value our differences from men. DIfferent but still equal. Not glossing over the differences.

Quattro - surely better to change society than say women have to become like men in order to achieve parity? And then fail because that is the way things are set up?

While women bear the children, and BF, we are unlikely to reach total financial equality due to taking even a little bit of time out of work. All the institutions and industries are male dominated - even women who do not have children and work work work rarely achieve the same salary and power levels as men.

What is needed is a fundamental change in society - who is running things and what their motivations are. So we can come to a more balanced society where people, men and women, can work as much or as little as they choose (or can afford), where women with children can work as much or as little or not at all as they like. And where it is a true meritocracy - you get paid in accordance with how good you are, not because you "show your face" in the office for 12 hours a day or look good in a suit.

Absolutely Shambolic. Why should WE become more like men??

I haven't had the TIME to be like a man the last 7 yrs. NOW< I could do it. But shoot me, I was a woman of childbearing age who had children. And that took precedence over my career. Not saying that I'm deleriously happy about the state of my pension mind you.

i think most women would rather be a sahm, given the choice...if feminism means i have to work 40 hours a week, come home to 3 kids and a sink full of washing up....well...you know where you can stick it.

I left my x because he wouldn't treat me equally.

It didn't solve all my problems but at least I wasn't gagging with resentment watching him feather his nest while I watched my pension suffer.

Society, the human race needs new members!!! We're all fecked in a couple of decades if people decide not to have children. If people were to make these decisions based PURELY on financial or career factors then it'd be unlikely that we'd ever have children at all!

Yes, I agree with you dittany. But for many women, particularly those in poorly-paid or minimum wage jobs, it makes no financial sense to work and have children. Which comes back to lack of choice of course.

But there is a significant number of women who are capable of working in better than minimum wage jobs who opt out. If more women believed they could earn more, then they could develop well-paid careers and would have a vision of motherhood which included having a career.

dittany....if every woman left her dh/dp because he wouldn't pull his finger out (housework wise)....no marriage would last more than 6 months.....reality i'm afraid.

I am not actually sure that most women would rather been full time SAHM, if things were genuinely equal and there was a real choice.

For example, in an ideal world, my having had a child and deciding I wanted to work part time would not have meant that I had to leave the career I had been building for 10 years and take an entry level admin job.

I would have liked to have been able to work part time with my good career and my pretty decent salary, and had time with my DD as well.

In an ideal world, as I was still earning plenty, it would have meant that DH would have been able to work part-time himself, to do childcare while I was at work/have time all of us as a family. This would have been afforable as I would still have been earning more.

As it is, DH has to work full time, to earn the money, even though it is less than I would have earned going back full time, and I am in an OK job but nothing special.

Yes it was my choice not to go back full time, but assuming that I wanted to spend some time with DD, that was the only option.

Why should it be all or nothing? Why chuck women in the bin just because they don't want to rush back to work after having a child? Why aren't men really allowed to work part time to raise children? The old old stereotypes still abound. And if you want a career, 9 times out of 10 you need to be able to pretend that you haven't got kids.

So while society is as it is nothing will change. We need to change society.

(or is flag waving a bit male?)

i am a feminist...100%

but i wouldn't walk out on my dh just because he wouldn't clean the toilet...