Are there any feminists out there?

[roundwindow]

And if so, where are you all hiding?!

Maybe I hang out in the wrong places, but since I left university (and later since I left London where I had a quite lefty arty-farty public sector job) I just feel like I'm the only feminist left on the planet.

I used to think my parents were hideously conservative and archaic with all their 'oh you and your women's lib' responses to my values. But maybe it's just the world of grown-ups?

What made me think about this was that I was recently reading Trinny and Susannah's 'What your clothes say about you' book and the section on new mums seemed so jaw-droppingly misogynist (sp?) to me. 'Pity your poor husband when you don't make an effort, don't be surprised when he leaves you for someone more interesting.... don't even think about wearing flats!' etc etc. And yet this is mainstream, this ideology is everywhere. Makes me so

And the culture in all the gossip magazines, where no young female seems to ever be accepted on her merits and it's all about what she looks like or how undignified her behavour is.

So any other proud-to-be-feminists out there? Tell me what you're thinking about!

I believe in women's autonomy, equal pay, the rights of women to do everything a man can do (well, except for sperm donation. I do admit to drawing the line there.)But Im one of those feminists who supports the rights of women to work in the sex industry if they choose to do so, and, more importantly, the rights of women to engage in sexual display and have loads of different sexual partners if they want to. Because I think that porn and the sex industry are far less a threat to women's empowerment and autonomy than organised religion, both in restricting access to birth control and demanding the right to discriminate on the grounds of superstiton 'faith', the endless peddling of mariage and motherhood as the only real way for women to find 'fulfilment', the myth that women 'want love' (ie romantic couplehood) because we have vaginas when actually romantic couplehood suits male privilege far better than it does women's freedom - 'romance' is the bait in the trap to ensure that women will willingly service men domestically and sexually in return for some plastic flowers.
I also think that people who complain about the 'sexualisation' of media and blame the porn industry are missing the point, again/. THe 'sex' portrayed in mainstream media is a kind of anti-sex in that the message is, you can't have sex unless you are thin and buy stuff, whereas there is a substantial percentafe of the porn industry which is all about bieng yourself and diversity.

Hmmm, I've never considered myself a feminist but then I have never understood the word. Yet I agree with almost all of what you have said here, especially what MargotBeauregarde has been saying.

The whole name thing doesn't bother me though, the name I had previously was my dad's and he had very little to do with my upbringing, to be honest if DH had a crap name I would have asked him to take mine, but it was just a case of who's was best!

The difficulty is that as a feminist are you expected to be able to do everything? I recently got a lot stick for not being able to change a bike tire, but you know what I can bake, I can crochet, speak passable Spanish, feed a family of three on less than £40 a week, get my leg round my neck, have an uncanny ability to find the end of sellotape (I'm known for it at work!), and recite the names of all the books of the New Testament (thanks to Brownies!), I can only do so many things. Changing a tire on my bike is not one of them.

In all seriousness though, I find myself doing a lot less now I live with my DH just because it is easier for him to do the things he is good at (building stuff, computer stuff) and me to do the stuff that I am good at (see above list). It doesn't mean I can't do the other stuff, and wouldn't do it if DH wasn't around. Is this undermining the feminist cause? Because as you can probably tell, I feel the need to justisfy myself.

I am a feminist and I think that every intelligent person is by default.
Solidgold You are so right about religion being another way to 'control' women but you've missed the point with pornography. look it up in the dictionary and it says the the graphic depiction of whores. It's the casual day to day assault on our senses through the trashy media dulling us into submission about it allthat gets me down. I hate it and do point it out in my home. btw i also painted both dd and ds nails why should he miss out on some family fun. Gender differences are just that, NOT a handicap or anything to hold against someone else i.e. pay gap.
Child care is the other big issue and under/devalueing of being a mother. You are right that if we as women are not fuckable we are not worthy is an awful isidious kind of thinking in the trashy press now.
Has anyone read Mysogyny written by a journalist called Smith (sorry can't quite remember her first name atm) and 'Gyn- Ecology by Mary Dayley?

The sex industry thing is a tough one - I suppose what I think is that there is nothing sexist about sex, women enjoying sex, or even making sex their career if they choose to - nothing sexist or misogynist about that in itself. I can imagine a world in which that was a respected, valid and equal choice. The problem is that in a misogynistic and sexist society, this is one of the main areas for women to be subjugated, abused and exploited and at the time time, the products of that sex work - pornography, prostitution etc - tend to function in such a way that they give women the role of an object to be used by men, and distort men's idea of what women should be like (looking a certain way, undemanding, dispensable, always sexually available, etc.) and in that way women who take part in it, even willingly, in the main do us all a disservice. It doesn't have to be that way, but it does tend to be.

Solid, I see why you want to support an individual's right to earn money in the sex industry if she chooses (Especially if her options are limited) but it weakens other women's place in society. It does. It very definitely, definitely does.

Do you think the kind of man who regularly goes to a lap dancing club and phones sex lines can regard his female GP, female MP, or female colleague with the respect they're due (purely because of their qualifications and relevant experience).

NO. I will stake an internal organ on the fact that most men who need the sex industry (not talking about that one stag wknd in Amsterdam in 1989 here, iyswim) can not do this. They'll be thinking, that woman, miserable ol' bag, she needs to wear a nice pink top and go blonde, and maybe some heels too! They wouldn't think a male gp needed to be attractive to his patients.

Calligylia, that Joyce Stephens 1975 quote is extraordinary. So on the nail, and in 24 yrs, nothing has changed. It IS still the same.

The only thing we have more freedom to do now is to become pole dancers and lap dancers.

Thanks Hester you win my host of the year award, even though I've never been to your parties! I like you.

& Abetadad.. thanks

That post was like an oscar acceptance speech I've just realised.

Only dim women are not feminists.

Wow, I'm really enjoying hearing all your ideas.

Solidgold - it's good to be reminded of how all pervasive the myth is of romantic love and marriage as the only way to find fulfilment. I really agree with you that it tends to perpetuate men's interests more than ours. And yet I for one have been far from immune to the societal pressures of this ideology.

But I do agree broadly with Margot and Muffle on the sex industry thing, I don't think it's necessarily a healthy extension of our sexual freedom. On Margot's point about the impact on men's ability to respect women outside these narrow roles.... I'd like to interview every man entering a pole dancing club and tell them to name me 5 women who they admire what they're doing but who they don't fancy and who they aren't related to. I wonder how long it would take them to think of people?!

I've never met a prostitute who has ever said, 'I love having sex with strangers...'

Then again, now that I think about it, have never met a vegetarian who says they are one because they love vegetables; more of hating meat

i married a man who i knew would earn enough so i could stay at home, i love make up and clothes, i paint my nails...would never have hairy legs .... but....i would fight for womens rights till the end.....not sure what that makes me ??

Clearly not a feminist if you have hair legs

i'm sure i am...deep down

Roundwomen, I see where you're going with the argument!

HOw many educated women who have the choice to be respected choose to be 'sexualised' (if not exploited). Very few.

And never mind educated women, how many ordinary, content women with a couple of mundane but feasable choices choose the sex industry?

It's still the choice of no choice. It's the Hobson's choice. Stuck between a rock and a hard place 'choice'.

Well I'm not sure that I can see the integrity in a brand of feminism that involves either prostitution or staying at home. For me feminism is about economic equality, because actually money drives poltical and social and intellectual behaviours.

So women dancing, quite literally, to a man's tune in a lapdancing club? How demeaning is that?

That statement shows that you don't value motherhood. You see motherhood on a parr with prostitution. That's an horrific state of affairs, and if feminism needs to correct anything, it is this, above all else.

I stayed at home with my 2 children and now that the youngest is 3 and a half, it's time for me to re-train, like I always wanted to.

Bloody damned if I was going to make every sacrafice for parenthood singlehandedly, which is what you want if you wish all women to rush back to work/not stay at home even while their children are tiny. That's not feminism, it's another form of slavery.

With you 100% on the lapdancing. dancing to a man's distorted idea of a woman.

I just find that I end up getting very very irate and upset about lots and lots of things that I have little or no hope of changing.

Here we are in one of the most democratic countries going, with all of our rights protected, and things are still as they are.

I despair I really do.

quattro;....re; lap dancing..trust me, men would be dancing around poles for money if the demand was there!

I despair too. I despair at the pornofocation of our society, but I have extra despair on top, despair that intelligent posters, people even, such as Quattrocentro hold motherhood in such poor regard. The perpetuation of the species is no trifling matter, and you can bet your bottom dollar if it were down to men, it would be revered like a cow in a Nepalese village.

Perpetuation of the species is not prostitution and it is not taking a sneaky long lunch to get yacrylic nails, or your highlights re-touched.

I don't want a medal for having had two children, but nor do I expect to have to make all the sacrafices for parenthood, or be penalised for it.

"
Bloody damned if I was going to make every sacrafice for parenthood singlehandedly, which is what you want if you wish all women to rush back to work/not stay at home even while their children are tiny. That's not feminism, it's another form of slavery."

The last thing I want is another WOHM v SAHM argument, but I don't see it as me making all the "sacrifices for parenthood" by "rushing back to work".

We shouldn't talk about women in the home in perjorative terms, must we use these loaded statements about women who don't stay at home? Have we come so far circle that it is considered downtrodden and unfeminist to work when you have small children? I thought all choices women made that were right for them and their families were valid?

i'm sure there is a demand dittany, but not a very big one...not many men want to dance half naked for other men.

might be different if woman wanted it.

Oh there's demand daftpunk, it's a supply problem rather than a lack of demand. Just because not many men want to dance half naked for other men, or have pad sex with other men, doesn't mean plenty of men wouldn't pay for it.

georgimama;

why is that then? is it because men can earn more or the same money in other jobs?