Was this woman a SELFISH person for doing this?

[KayHarkerIsPlayingWithMitchell]

I read today.

I have to ask, (aside from the religious element, which I know you won't all share) is she right that her first response was bad?

WWYD? Would it involve rubbing feet?

puke

This is everything wrong with the "submission to your husband" bullshit that some Christians ascribe to.

Wow. Just wow.

Makes me think of this.

Kay,

I do not, and have never, bought into this idea of christianity. But I know many people who have and I grew up in a fairly religious environment so have experienced some of this teaching first hand.

It seems to me that MrsMH has it right when she says you don't feel abused which makes it hard to discuss with others, particularly those who aren't religious. This is really about the accepted view of religion and christianity around you that says submission - in the context of asking forgiveness and paying penance for having a bad day - is the way things should be. MrsMH is right too that you need to find Christian groups with a broader idea of christianity - perhaps online if you're not able to go out as much? I doubt your husband is a bad man, he just thinks that he should be the leader in all things in your family unit.

To answer your original question - yes, she was perhaps a bit selfish by ranting on when he came home, but in a normal, understandable way and "gracious" forgiveness wasn't necessary.

Here is another website that I came across a few months ago with similar ideas to the one you've flagged. I read it occassionally because I desperately want to understand - this woman is obviously happy, intelligent and loved with a partner who shares much with her and yet... the way she refers to herself, to him, to their relationship boggles my mind. She is always so excessively grateful for every single thing he does. DH and try hard never to take each other for granted and thank each other and appreciate tasks we do for each other and our home, but I'm not grateful because he does a load of washing?

SBG, yup, you're right. You've said it before too, and you were right then as well.

I am getting there, slowly but surely. Good grief, when I think about where I was when I first started posting here, there's an enormous difference. Some day soon, I think the pendulum might stop swinging and I'll be in the middle somewhere, being sensible.

MrsMH, 'tis a point of contention with me and Dh, and has been ever since I started this journey out of it all. In many ways he's just as conflicted as I am, he wasn't brought up this way, but has no great incentive to come out of it now.

Plus it's nearly ten years worth of commitment to a lifestyle that is only under threat because his wife is a stubborn mouthy cow who likes to write.

Thoughtful posts, MrsMH.

KH, IFIRC, it was you who introduced your DH to these ideas. Or am I making that up?

I don't think I understand properly how much of the pressure for you to think and behave in this way is coming from you because you think it is right and how much is coming from your DH because he thinks it's right.

PP, no, you're not wrong - that's what I mean about caveat emptor. I bought it all initially, so if it bites me on the backside, I've only got myself to blame.

Dh is a man who takes his time over things, but once he's there, he's hard to move. He's convinced this is what scripture says it should be like, and he gets quite frustrated with me for saying otherwise.

And to a large extent, I think I'm only half-hearted rocking the boat because I know I don't have any options, really. I've got no trump card in this, I can't leave, and I've given up the power in the relationship ages ago.

Kay, are you really going to resign yourself to your 'fate' like this for the rest of your life? Bearing in mind, of course, that if you do, your relationship will not stay the same as it is now. Things will just get worse over time, not just in terms of how you feel, but in terms of your relationship with your DH, your levels of self-respect - and let's not forget the impact on your children. So are you really going to resign yourself to this?

Meant to add that I don't understand why the caveat emptor warning should have such a bearing on your life in this way. We are all entitled to grow, in fact it's a requirement of a healthy life. So why should you expect to be content with the same things that made you content 10 years ago?

Kay, although this thread is a very thoughtful, and thought provoking one, it does make me worry for you.

Mrs MH has some very good points. You can expect to grow and change as your life goes on, and it seems the shape your church is trying to force you into does not recognise that. Meanwhile, there are so many other groups with what seems to me a much more mature understanding of the human condition.

I think perhaps, rather like counselling, you don't have to explore what these groups have to offer together. Just going yourself (via the internet if not in person) might be a good first step.

Nope, I'm not going to just resign myself to it - I mean seriously, I wouldn't have got this far if I was going to do that. It's a bit 3 steps forward, 2 steps back atm, but it is changing. He's not, but I am, and at the end of the day, I'm the only one I can actually change anyway.

I know what you mean about buyer beware, I suppose I'm just having to address my motivations for what I do and don't do. It's also a useful warning so that I don't end up ripping strips off Dh as though he's chosen this. I chose it. If I want out, then that's my thing, I can't complain if he listened to me and acted in accordance with what I was interested in earlier in the marriage.

It is my fault, and that's not me being a martyr - like SGB often points out, I chose marriage for pragmatic reasons and he did not and there is generally fall out from that eventually.

gizmo, to be fair, this isn't really from my church. There are two couples there who kind of subscribe to this in a roundabout sort of way, but it's not coming from the church, this is a wider circle of christian friends.

And yup, I'd love to break out of this circle, and I am trying (or I wouldn't be on MN) - it's just a lot harder in the flesh than it is on the computer.

Yes, if only RL was as easy as Mumsnet!

In some respects, the passage you first linked to provides a useful analogy, perhaps? Her husband had been working, at her suggestion, on building something. And this contributed to her feeling that she should seek his forgiveness for her (entirely understandable) outburst when it turned out that his extra work that day was counterproductive to her happiness.

I don't think she should apologise. I don't think you should feel at all apologetic, either. But I do think it might be useful to use those persuasive powers to achieve goals that should make you all happier in the long term.

I'm very worried for you and about you MrsKH. Your threads recently have been all about various internal conflicts about your marriage and how you would like to live. I'm sorry but your husband sounds very domineering.

I'm going to chuck a nuke into this - and I fully expect to get shouted at both non believers and more "orthodox" Christians who will both say it's very convenient to ditch bits of scripture that aren't convenient:

This is bollocks. God doesn't want you (or any other woman) to make a slave of yourself to your husband. Your husband should love, honour and respect you.

You frequently say you feel guilty for shifting the goalposts in your marriage. Do you really think it is reasonable of your husband to expect things to stay the same in a marriage? People change - life changes. Situations change. People get sick, they become disabled; they lose jobs, they change careers. They decide they want children, or find they can't have children, or actually don't want them. The road map you have when you're standing at the altar is unlikely to have led you to exactly where you are 10 years later. And there is nothing wrong with any of that.

faq has said already what I was thinking but I actually think a very important part of the Ephesians quote is the last bit

"However, let each one of you love his wife as himself, and let the wife see that she respects her husband."

Basically hes got to treat her how he wants to be treated and if hes to be respected then so is she.

(I'm so rubbish with words so I hope that makes sense)

Kay- I agree with Georgi though. Worried for you.

Which I could introduce men like these men to men like my Father. Both my parents are Christians and I truly believe they are a good example of how a marriage should be.

Oh and I'm always suspect of Paul I have to admit I studied Pauls and women int he bible as my topic for gcse re and realised quite how sexist he was. I don't remember Jesus talking about women int he same negative way.

Bronze, I love that! "I'm always suspect of Paul". I love the reminder that these are just people whose own experience and lives were colouring what they say. Which is always my point - of cousre you shouldn't have premarital sex when the average age of marriage is 13 and you're barely old enough to have sex even then. When your society considers a 13yo getting married seriously problematic, the other rules should change too!

I can see why Kay's DH is resistant to change: who wouldn't be resistant to being told 'Well matey you've been the boss and the owner and the important one for however many years but it's not working for me any more, time for you to pick up your own socks and wipe your own arse now and again becasue there is more to me than servicing you.' (not to say that Kay isn't being more diplomatic about it than that). People who haver privileges are never wild about giving them up.
But, while I don't believe in any gods I do know that among Christians, it's only a minority who reckon that god and jesus were (as some columnist put it a while ago) lunatic bigoted sociopaths so their followers should be too.
This is quite a well-known piss-take of bible-bashing loons but it's worth passing on to those who haven't read it yet...

Didn't want to read all this and then not say anything, but so much has been said far better than anything I could say.

Change is scary Kay, it always is, even if it's something you really want and when you are 100% sure it is the right thing to do. Personally I think you're doing the right thing, you can't hide in a persona that's wrong just to keep other people happy. I hope you can draw comfort from the fact that no-one on here thinks what you are doing is wrong, either religious or not.

As for RL friends, if you're anywhere near London I'd be more than happy to supply coffe, cake and scandalous thought as I think you're rather admirable tbh.

Well indeed. And how convenient that he has "scripture" to back him up.

PMSL at SGB's link. Hope KH's husband doesn't eat shellfish, or plant more than one type of crop in his vegetable patch.

Glad you liked it GM, it's a favourite of mine (and I am actually fully aware that the majority of Christians are not like Dr Fecking Laura - it's because of the ones who are that I like to keep a stern eye on the privileging of 'religion').

well if he's that resistant to change I could suggest to him that he reads all the way through the bible and see how things changed over time - or perhaps she just needs to look at a few of the churches that are still suck in the middle ages with their thoughts on woman in the church .

KAy - have you considered seeing if your DH will go to any of the marriage guidance/counsellig type course that Ellel Ministries run?

My parents went on one years ago when their marriage was in dire trouble and it really helped them.

lol Solid - I'm a Christian and that made me

love the link

FAQ- do you find yourself getting annoyed with 'biblebashers' as they tend to do so much more harm than good