Was this woman a SELFISH person for doing this?

[KayHarkerIsPlayingWithMitchell]

I read today.

I have to ask, (aside from the religious element, which I know you won't all share) is she right that her first response was bad?

WWYD? Would it involve rubbing feet?

I (almost) agree with FAQ - she did persuade him to do the building project, so he can hardly be blamed for interpreting that as: 'I'm fine, honey, I may be 8 mnonths pregnant but I can manage'. How can that be his fault?

However the foot-rubbing? I don't even do that when I'm not pregnant!

I do agree with the blogger that navel-gazing makes you selfish, however I certainly don't think she was selfish for pouring out her heart to her husband without asking him about his day first. So all the proufuse apologies followed by gracious forgiveness? Excessive and unnecessary.

It sounds like they practise a form of Christianity in which a woman places herself beneath her husband, and so in her opinion her needs should always come second. I share the same faith but could never live like this, and have never felt any obligation to do so. If my DH wants his feet rubbed he'll have to pay - preferably in chocolate, champagne and diamonds!

Er, that should be 'months' and 'profuse'.

Also to clarify about the navel-gazing thing, I mean excessive navel-gazing, which is not what she did when her husband walked in.

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Perhaps she rubbed his feet with deep heat .......

Hmmmm. Thinking hard about this. Will come back later after I've tried to overcome my dislike of aprons and blogs decorated with the flowers of femininity. And fed my kids and put them in front of Cbeebies found constructive and educational activities for them to do.

I think I probably should have said potentially dangerous, fwiw.

Yes, it's possible to do a Christian marriage that doesn't involve any of that. Unfortunately, for the past decade, the kind of Christianity I've been influenced by has been the kind that does allow men to have a privileged position, and has created this odd kind of woman who willingly, joyfully submits because it's what she's 'designed for' etc, which is where Crystal operates too.

She'd swear blind she wasn't oppressed - she's a very articulate and clever woman, and she would be enormously disappointed with what I'm expressing here. But I did it for so long and I wasn't just 'dying to selfishness' I was disappearing into a person that wasn't even recognizably me.

I still haven't learned how to do it any other way, though.

And I find it enormously tempting to go back because it seems to work so well for some people. I just end up wanting to kill myself when I do it, though.

Pruners, do you think that in your friend's case it could be said that both of them are manipulating each other?

KayHarker: 'I just end up wanted to kill myself when I do it' - isn't it amazing that some people would argue that the problem is with you, and not with your concept of what God expects of you as a wife?

It's like the bizarre view that God expects a woman to stay in an abusive relationship that is utterly destroying her, and to try and work at her marriage to a man who is never going to change. I do believe that God expects us to work hard at building good marriages (and on that score, good relationships with everyone), but I also believe he/she's overflowing with love and understanding, and that those qualities come first.

ahh but you see this "submitting" business is all very interesting, as (IMO) the man gets the harder job - blimey he's supposed to love his wife as much as God loves the church - now that's quite a tall order.

And the interpretation of "submit" is very subjective too.

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MrsMH, it's not just amazing, it's happened again and again. I'm forever being told that the issue is the sinful selfishness in my own heart that won't accept the calling that I have been made for. 'Passionate Housewives', which is available on Amazon, is a good example of the kind of thing I'm talking about.

It gets a bit wearing after a while, which is why I have these little existential crises from time to time.

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I can't get round the subservient language used on the site, so I cannot to view it objectively.

Am trying not to be rude about it but I have never read anything like this before

Surely a partnership is about mutual respect and love. It's about your partner being able to say: "Look let's stop moaning and have a glas of wine and a cuddle and a chat."

Yup, no doubt.

I'm presuming that all of these models work because both people are committed to pursuing them, though. My Dh was quite happy with the arrangement we had before, thankyouverymuch, and has male friends who have convinced him that it is, in fact, what God commands, and that makes it a little harder to find a way forward.

Smallorange - hear, hear.

KayHarker - do you think there's equivalent pressure placed on the men in your church to fulfill what's expected of them as husbands?

(I'll stop laughing now: what a ridiculous question)

And look at her, says Dh - she's so godly, and feminine and humble.

Everything I'm really not, in fact.

I mean, he doesn't say that out loud, but he goes on and on about the women we know who are tremendously contented with their lot, and embrace their calling and just are really lovely women.

And I know I'm not doing that, and I'm fairly sure he's got in mind that I'll have my little sinful rebellion and then I'll get my act together and everything in the garden will be rosy again.

Pruners - it does sound, as you've said, like she's worked out the best way to get around him. Which actually sounds like a form of sophisticated manipulation. Either way, what a sad way to conduct one's relationships (I mean this for both of them).

KayHarker, I want to give you a huge hug. You sound as though you feel trapped, wanting to be true to yourself (which in itself is not ungodly, unfeminine, or un-humble (ahem)), but being pressurised both at home and among your peers at church.

Well, as it happens, at my church, yes. This stuff doesn't really stem from our church, this is from our wider circle of Christian friends.

But among that wider circle, well, the idea is that it's the woman's role to help her husband fulfil his vision. So I guess there is pressure for men to have a vision, and for them to make sure that they are providers and hands-on fathers and so on.

But it's very much like the tender care for a precious possession, which doesn't appeal to me half as much as it did when I got married, tbh.

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That's interesting that men are pressurised as well, very unexpected. Why do you think your group of friends need to have such clearly-defined roles for men and women? Part of the problem, I think, is in binding early church culture with doctrine. Like the Old Testament rules about cooking with milk and meat or wearing clothing made from mixed fibres. Today we view those as clearly cultural norms, but we still have trouble unpicking other cultural norms and therefore we end up with an odd perspective on how to live.

Pruners - oh dear, how very sad. He sounds like a bit of a bully.

Kayharker - surely your husband wants you to be happy and feel fulfilled.

And if your are feeling unhappy surely you could both explore what would be more fulfilling for you? What's sinful about that?

Your life is as important as his!

It's complicated. Some days I think it's a bit of caveat emptor - I made my bed when I bought into all this in the first place, after a lifetime of mess, I chose the slightly freaky neatness, and that's that. No use complaining about it now.

Other days I want to tear my hair out with the injustice of it - even down to the idea of 'household voting' and channeling all personal hopes and dreams into what your husband wants. I mean I write that out and it's just bloody nuts. But they do talk a good game, and often manage to convince me that I'm only railing against it because I'm all wrong.

Meh.