Was this woman a SELFISH person for doing this?

[KayHarkerIsPlayingWithMitchell]

I read today.

I have to ask, (aside from the religious element, which I know you won't all share) is she right that her first response was bad?

WWYD? Would it involve rubbing feet?

submission isn't just doing what you're told - that's a very simplistic way of looking at it. It's not about a power thing, if it was all about power then the men wouldn't have a much longer list of instructions to follow.

And you know what - I've just browsed through about 15 different translations of that particular passage in not one of them was the woman told that she had to love her husband - how's that ladies you don't have to love him - just put up with him

Interesting point MrsMH - in context I think it is pretty radical for its day, just as Jesus actually talking to women was in 1st century Jewish culture.

Well, yes, it has come to the point where I'm thinking 'submission - what does that even mean?'

Because being caring a loving to someone else is a good and right thing to do in this context, but the submitting thing? I'm not sure why that is something that is especially the task of women. And I know what happens next, we wheel out 'submit to one another' passage, and that's all well and good, but that's not what the 'wives, submit' passage says.

See, I just can't find the middle ground here - I swing between the view of the woman in the Blogpost and SGB's forthrightness.

Kay, your situaion must be that much harder because your health prevents you from getting out as much as you'd like.

How long since you've started to question this view of marriage? Is it something you've been mulling over for some years?

Ask: submission - what does it look like in practice? because I think the answer is going to be individual to every situation.

MrsMH, yes, this has been going for the last couple of years. 5 years ago, I was the kind of woman PP described - flowery dresses, household voting, no contrception, the whole nine yards.

Then I came on here...

Don't get me started on no contraception ...

Silly cow!

Reality, you see, that testimony is the kind of thing that drew me into it all in the first place. The idea that a father would protect his daughters seemed incredibly attractive.

From that passage Reality, I don't agree with you that it indicates fatherly 'abuse'; I think that's far too strong a term. She's only written about her own thoughts, not about what her father's done or said to her. But yes, there's clearly something wrong with the way this young woman relates to God, to herself, and to her family. Just the language itself is somewhat disconnected from reality - I have encountered this type of elaborate 'holy talk' hundreds of times from Christians (I daresay in the past I bought into it myself) and it generally indicates an inability to be down-to-earth and real about life.

I thought that testimony was awful too reality. Frightening.

I wouldn't see that as protection. Surely a parents role is to guide children to become independent adults. Not adults who can only survive in submission to a husband or father, adults who can only be protected and looked after.

Kay - like many of us you're on a journey on which you're growing, spiritually as well as emotionally. I'm still intrigued about your other friends and their own journeys - if you had to examine the women, which of them do you suspect might understand your situation?

Kay, abuse of daughters by their fathers is very common among people with this mindset. The men think they own both their wives and their children, and the ones that don't actually rape their daughters often damage their daughters' sexuality by being very controlling of it.
Have a look at this for sick fuckery.
These kinds of 'Christian' men are a bit like nazis/bigots of all kinds, they are fundamentally inadequate human beings, so therefore they rush to buy into a belief system that says 'Hey, you have a dick and/or white skin so you are INHERENTLY superior to all these people who do not. You own them. Because Great Pumpkin says so...'

Reality - interestingly by posting that passage you've brought the conversation back to this question of culture vs doctrine. In Middle Eastern and African cultures today, the father is far more dominant over the family (especially the daughters) than in Western cultures. So I ask myself whether the idea of women submitting in the Church is actually a hang-on from an ancient Israeli culture?

MrsMH, I honestly couldn't say - most of them were brought up in the faith, I was not.

The reason the idea of fathers protecting daughters seems so incredibly attractive, even now, to a certain extent, is because I wasn't protected - I was pretty much thrown to the wolves by my father, (I mean, I can't even type out any specifics because it's still so horribly painful, and I've just spent a few minutes trying) and I desperately didn't want that for my children.

It doesn't look so wonderful now, it really doesn't, but I can't pretend it didn't look the absolute business to me at one point.

SGB: "These kinds of 'Christian' men are a bit like nazis/bigots of all kinds, they are fundamentally inadequate human beings" - yes, you have to feel fundamentally inadequate deep down inside, in order to manipulate and control someone to that extent.

I understand what you're saying, Kay - though, as an aside being brought up in the faith doesn't prevent one from developing an enquiring mind about it.

Do you feel that your DH has (or is expected to have) excessive control over your children as well?

wow

words can't describe how disturbing that is. i was with her for the first bit.. the whinging and the realising 'whoops, his day might have been shite too'

but she rubbed his feet cooked him dinner and he let her even though he knew how worn out and exhausted she was

weird upon weird upon weird!

MrsMH, oh yes, that's part of the pressure that is put on him to 'run his household well'. His friends are very much part of the whole 'purity ball' thing that SGB mentioned - through something called Vision Forum in the US, which is google-able.

SGB, I know what you mean about the control thing, but that's almost exactly why it appealed to me. I thought it was better to have your sexuality restricted in that way than what happened to me.

I do know it's fucked up to think that way now, it's just it's very hard to extricate yourself from it once you're there.

dear god

Kay: I am sorry you have been living in this situation unhappily for so long. Much as I have no time at all for superstitions, I am aware that there are plenty of Christians and Christian organisations that are not run by limp-dicked misogynists, and I really do think you could find plenty of Christian support for dumping this wankyman mindset. There are gay and lesbian Christian organisations, all of whom think that god and jesus are perfectly ok with them the way they are (and can come up with plenty of theological arguments to justify their position).
You have said many a time that your faith is important to you: just wanted to say that walking away from woman-hating knobs doesn;t mean walking away from Christianity altogether.

I agree with SGB Never thought I would write that.

Kay, I may be wrong but it seems that part of what makes it so difficult to extricate yourself is that you don't feel you're being abused as such. Were your experience more extreme (and were you in better health) you could probably find a way to convince yourself, for example, to leave your husband and start again. But you love your husband (I'm assuming) and the way he behaves is somewhere in the middle-ground between ideal and abusive. So finding a suitable middle-ground solution is difficult.

Have you ever been able to have a thoughtful conversation with him about it? Or does he always respond by rote, that you should submit and be more godly?