Bugsy

[sykes]

For some reason I can't reply on the board on this thread (affair - is he/isn't he) and would rather converse via e-mail anyway. I'd be really happy to "talk" in this way as it's not unfamiliar territory. Please feel free to get my e-mail address from tech.

Bugsy I never have posted on this thread because I didn't feel I had anything to add. But now I can really see both sides. I understand why you are still with him, and that you dare not finish things until you know you tried your best, or allowed him to try. I also understand the people who believe you should get out now, he doesn't seem to be making much of an effort to put things right.

In your situation I think I would do exactly what you are doing, take it slowely and don't make any big rash decisions. Him coming to councelling is one step, but as well know there are men our there who feel this is enough to show you they care. I believe everyone deserves a bit more. Big flash presents and gestures aren't important now, but respect is. I don't feel he gives you enough respect at the moment. I suggest that it might be worth writing down what you want and believe you deserve from a relationship, any relationship, not just this one. Also is it worth doing one counselling session on your own to help this process? Even if you don't show it to your dh, it will give you some idea where you want to be in the long-term.

Good Luck with whatever you decide, it has to be a decsion that you make for yourself.

Bugsy, I was in a very similar situation to you a year ago. As well as couples councelling I went along to a psychotherapist on my own which I found very helpful and empowering. It helped me prepare myself for all eventualities as well as attempting to sort out the problems of the marriage. The situation was similar in many ways, one of them being that my husband was working with this woman. My councellor helped me to define what I could and couldn't accept and I realised that one of the things that I couldn't live with was for them to continue working together. I clearly stated to him that they either work out some way so that they didn't have to work together - or ever see each other again -or the marriage was over. You can't be expected to live your life constantly watching over your shoulder and even if he does stop seeing her it's just not acceptable for them to continue working together. By telling my husband this I felt that I was starting to call the shots and it made me feel a lot better. There has to be hard and fast rules in this sort of situation and you shouldn't tolerate anything other than what makes you feel secure. He's changed the course of your marriage -for whatever reason - and has to accept that this has triggered off changes that have to be made in all different walks of life. It's his responsibility to make sure you feel secure in the marriage, or it will not work. You mustn't feel bad about putting such demands on your husband. I do hope that you can work things out. It sounds like he has a lot of work to do but if you both really want your marriage to work it can be done. My husband and I are still together and his affair, however painful, opened up a whole can of worms which we worked through and it was the catalyst for sorting all sorts of things out. Our marriage is now stronger and much more honest than it was before the affair. You have to understand why it happened in order to move on. God it's really hard, isn't it? I managed to get through it by assuring myself that whatever happened, I would come out of it a stronger person.

Bugsy, I think jona's message is spot on regarding calling the shots and (possibly) asking your husband to cease working with this woman.

If that's what it takes to help your marriage work then so be it. I don't have your experience to draw on, but I am pretty sure that if my husband was working with a woman and I knew they had had an affair, I wouldn't be able to rest until they stopped being close colleagues.

In your case, your trust is tested so very extremely - this woman and your husband don't only work days, they routinely go off together for weeks at a time abroad. I think you'd have to be a saint to feel totally secure with that arrangement, now. Without that sense of security, how can you and your husband build your relationship again? OK the job change might be a bad move financially, but so would divorcing him.

Only my view, hope you don't mind me stating it this strongly. I was just trying to put myself in your shoes, and Jona's advice rang so true for me.

Bugsy, I just wanted to logon to say I'm thinking of you and really hope you can find a way through this mess.

I know I'm repeating what's already on this thread ...but really if you take control you will feel better. You can throw him out in an instant, clothes packed, out on the lawn. Try putting yourself in his shoes: A sharp shock for him, and lets be honest it makes little difference to you as you're looking after the kids 24/7 anyway. Cut off communication. While he's away at work you need him to be worrying and working out what to do, not seeing his girlfriend and having it easy, knowing you are at home looking after his kids.

Remember everything is reversible and if you throw him out and you can't cope you can always offer him a home again. But I really can't see that happening. He's going to be the one to crawl back when he realises what he has lost (if you want him by then- it'll give you time to find out), you can take him to the cleaners, you can limit access to the kids. I know you don't want to do that, but this is all about putting the fear of god into him, making him think he will lose EVERYTHING (including you). You know you wouldn't dream of stopping the kids seeing him, but he doesn't.

Time to act like a woman scorned, it really ISN'T working like this, and you're bending over backwards. Isn't it time to draw the line and make him do some serious worrying for a change!!

{many cyber-hugs{}}

hugs, Bugsy, sorry to hear it's not getting better. Wise words from many people below. I think Jimjams and Crunchie are right about taking it slowly - it's so tempting when things go wrong to react quickly but I absolutely think you are right to feel your way to what you want in your heart.

One thing that did strike me was that originally you had said you'd worked hard at making his life easy and being a good partner - was this effectively shielding him from difficulties and your emotions? Are you still sort of doing this now?

It's really important that he realises what you really mean by changing - it may be changing his job, it may mean blocking this woman's phone number from his mobile, it may mean telling his boss he can't travel for a bit, it may mean treating you like a queen, whatever you need to feel secure. It sounds like he's just carrying on as normal and waiting for you to come round, which isn't acceptable in anyone's book, but may be the way he's always used to relating to you. He needs to understand you need him to be proactive, in whatever way helps you best.

If you find it hard to tell him this, even at counselling (although a session on your own might help), then have you considered doing it in writing. I'm tempted to suggest you start texting him with how you feel ('I wish I could trust you' 'I need flowers' 'My day is crap, I need cheering up', whatever it takes), it would certainly be a way of starting a dialogue and reclaiming texts from that awful woman. And if it does work out for you in the long run, it might be the start of you being able to express your need for mutual support better.

You know we're here for you if you need us.

Phillipat, the texts are a novel approach!

Lil, everything you've said is exactly what I was thinking, I just couldn't trust myself to be so sensible about it all and not say something awful.
I think thats a fantasic suggestion and Bugsy if you're reading this I hope you feel the same and feel that taking back some power in this horrible situaton will show him his behaviour just isn't good enough.
I'm sure we'll all be cheering you on if you want back up.

I was given much the same advice as some of the posts here - ie kick him out, give him a short, sharp shock and don't let him back until he comes crawling on his knees and then you'll know he really wants you. I don't think it's a very good idea to do anything just for effect or for a reaction. It must be because you really do want to do it. I felt I had to act honestly to myself and to him and no matter how much he may have needed a kick in the fact, it wasn't ultimately what I wanted. My advice once again would be, if you want to try and save your marriage, which I think you do, try but only on your terms. Be firm about the terms you are prepared to accept. You need to be absolutely sure that he is not going to continue seeing this woman behind your back and that he is going to try and work at saving the marriage and become a better husband for the right reasons. Alternatively work out a way of separating with the least amount of pain caused to both yourself and your children, but act slowly and trust your own instincts, rather than doing something because it's what he needs. I found one particular book helpful - 'Infidelity' A Survival Guide by Don-David Lusterman - you can order it from Amazon. Get your husband to read it as well.

Thank you all so much, some really great advice and a big thanks to Jona. It gives me encouragement to know that you can come out of these things stronger than before.
The counselling on Thursday night was really awful. I was just spewing our stuff and dh was very defensive and aggressive. If we hadn't been in the presence of our counsellor, there is no way I could have said the things I did - he would not have stayed in the room and listened to me.
Friday was a bad day but he made a big effort over the weekend. He tried hard to be more patient with the children and I got flowers and more help around the house than usual. It was the first time since this whole situation began that I actually felt he was trying to improve matters.
He keeps asking for hugs and cuddles, which I feel uncomfortable with, and last night had the audacity to ask if he could sleep in our bed. I said it would take more than 2 days of making an effort to return to our bed.
I have also started going to see a counsellor on my own. I feel I have completely lost sight of what I want and any sense of perspective on our relationship. I need someone impartial to help me, so hopefully that will be a good thing.
I think that taking control is important. I have come to the conclusion that I am cowardly, big steps frighten me. I have to have huge amounts of anger and adrenalin coursing through me to ask him to leave. When I went for post-traumatic stress counselling the pyscho-therapist said I needed to try and find my anger. She said I needed to stop seeing things from everyone else's point of view and start looking at things from my perspective. I am trying but it is hard!

Oh Bugsy, FWIW, I think that you are taking the right steps - you definately need to find out what you want in all the fuggy mess. Hope things improve for your family.

Bugsy - so sorry to hear counselling is still so hard, but you are absolutely NOT being cowardly. You will decide in time, what course of action is best for you, but whatever that is, it will be a brave course of action - leaving dh and being with the kids is scary as you say, but equally don't underestimate your bravery if you do decide to stay and work it out. Cyber hugs

Bugsy, I've been reading your threads and pulling for you silently. I haven't offered advice because I've had none to offer.

But I do want to say how brave I think you are. I don't know anyone who isn't afraid of big steps. But what you have is the kind of stoicism and day-to-day strength that I think many people (including me) only wish they had.

In fact, you display strength just by getting through each day with him in your house. Getting him to leave might turn out to be a breeze in comparison.

bugsy, so pleased to read that you think your dh is making more of an effort. Good luck with seeing your counsellor. Big steps frighten the h* out of me, too. I suppose you could see you taking control as more of a middle way - you are not simply waiting and hoping for things to get better, but neither you are telling your dh to pack his bags. You are just finding out what he needs to do for you, so you can stay together.

God, life is a bit poo sometimes. Things starting to look a tiny bit better with dh and I've just been told at work that I should start looking for other jobs before the end of June.
Oh, oh, oh, ooooooooooooooohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!
Nothing like being kicked when you are down.

Oh Bugsy thats a real b*er.Maybe you'll find an even better job though (less hours,more pay....you know the sort of thing!)Until then cyber hugs

Bugsy, now the only way is up.....

Have you thought about contracting at all (is it possible in your line of work?) I switched to that on redundancy and now I am on LESS hours MORE pay!!! It can be done!

good luck, glad dh is beginning to see the light,(sorry my advice didn't help - its my star sign, fire you see!)

Do you know what Lil, I think I'm a fire sign too!!!! I'm never very sure but I think Aries is fire.
I am actually really peed off about the job. I love my job and really like the guys I work with. One of them I've been with for 6 years. I've got to find something else as the thought of being at home 7 days a week with my two (very dear) monsters absolutely terrifies me.
I'm a project manager, so I don't know how that lends itself to contracting but the search is now on. In fact I haven't been in the job market for 6 years and don't really feel sure where to start looking but if you don't look, you won't find!

Oh poo, poo, poo! hope you find something with loads more money to make up for crap timing on your employers part!

Oh, goodness Bugsy, you couldn't make it up, could you. Of all the people to get a warning of redundancy...I am so sorry to hear this latest piece of news. No chance of a couple of you setting up alone in business, is there? It's such a shame to lose good colleagues on top of the financial implications. Huge commiserations from a fellow fire sign.

Bugsy - how awful for you on top of everything else. Trying to look on the bright side, at least you've had a bit of warning and job-hunting will certainly give you something to throw yourself into for the next few months. There always seem to be adverts for project managers in the paper. What sort of projects have you been managing?

Bugsy, Project Management is PERFECT for contracting. That's what I do, and so many of my friends and ex-colleagues are in contracting. It lends itself to part-time work as well, which is why plenty of mums I know have switched to it. Its the only way to afford childcare on more than one child, and make any decent money. Find some of the agents and send them your CV, they do all the work for you. I guess I can't advertise which ones here, but do a search on project management ad your area of specialisation (engineering, finance, IT etc) and you'll see lots of them. Rates vary from £25 upwards, depending on demand. Let me know if you need any advice

I'm a project worker for an engineering firm and I'm also a Contractor. There are many tax benefits in contracting.....
All the Contractors here flinch when you mention the 'staff' word! They'd rather be unemployed than go staff, so it must be good!

.....there are ALWAYS project management positions here.

MUM2TOBY..ooh now where are you, pleeese give me a clue??