Bugsy

[sykes]

For some reason I can't reply on the board on this thread (affair - is he/isn't he) and would rather converse via e-mail anyway. I'd be really happy to "talk" in this way as it's not unfamiliar territory. Please feel free to get my e-mail address from tech.

Bugsy - nothing to add really but did want to express my sympathy for what you're going through. Not surprised you're feeling "flat" - such a thing would flatten anybody. Just keep looking for that light at the end of the tunnel. You are obviously a strong person to have got this far, and whatever happens you will get through this and life will get better again.

Thank you all for your good wishes. Had a chat on Tuesday night at my instigation. He is definitely trying to take the focus off his transgression and is now suggesting that my issues are not about the affair at all but about his inadequacies. I keep trying to point out that his betrayal of me has made me no longer prepared to absorb all his c**p any more.
He keeps saying that he is the way he is and he can try and learn to cope with things better but that he is not going to change. I feel that our roles have changed, we are parents and therefore we need to change to meet the responsibilities that go with having children. Is that a reasonable perspective?
In the end he was just bullying me and said "right, I want you to go to his meeting on Thursday with 3 things I need to change". At this point we'd been talking for nearly an hour and a half and I just cried. I felt like I might as well have been talking to myself.
Anyhow, I'm going to go prepared again tonight with stuff written down, so that I remember what to say. Hopefully, I may even be able to control the shaking

Good luck tonight Bugsy. He sounds as if he has some serious growing up to do. Also sounds as if he still hasn't accepted responsibility. Could you discuss with the councellor about ways to gain conrol (I sound obsessive). I just think that if he felt you had some control over the situation he may start to take notice a bit more. Amybe if the councellor started talking about whether he should move out (not suggesting he does) he may realise that this is serious.

As always Bugsy you sound very reasonable. I think that if he's going around setting you homework the least he can do is the same - come up with threee areas of improvement for himself for tonight's meeting.

Definitely write down what you want to say as you did last time. And here's hoping you get something out of tonight's session.

Bugsy - I feel that I can't give you any advice because you sound so clued up already. You are in control of this situation, and you are handling this so brilliantly.
It is not at all unreasonable of you to expect dh to change since you have had kids - like everything else, it is a process of negotitaion. My dh flatly refused to give up his Chelsea season ticket, but did make many other concessions.
You need to decide if you really want to live with him if he will not change. His previous behaviour gives you the perfect right to make such decisions about your joint future.

Keep going - you will get over this, one way or another.

Again all the previous posts echo exactly my own thoughts so I've no need to add any thing further.
I have followed this thread over the weeks and posted a few times....nothing constuctive though I doubt....and I have been amazed at your DH's attitude towards the whole situation that he ALONE caused. You really are doing a fantastic job of holding yourself together and staying calm, I'm afraid I've nowhere near the willpower and control in myself.
If I was in your situation at my DH had told me to write down 3 things I want to change I would simply put 3 times YOUR BLOODY ATTITUDE ABOUT THIS MESS YOU'VE MADE OF OUR RELATIONSHIP!!!!!
Sorry I know thats not going to help but as I've said I amazed that he seems to think he can turn it around to all be on your shoulders.
Keep going Bugsy you're doing a brilliant job.

Bugsy - lots of sympathy, it really sounds a mirror image of what I went through (men - so bloody unoriginal) I really identify your comment that you are amazed he could deceive you for so long - that really hurts doesn't it - the old saying 'the wife is the last to know' is so true and I hate to read those smug comments (I've even seen them on mumsnet), 'I would just know if my DH had an affair' or 'he just isn't the type' ........ the whole experience just showed me that you never, never know how life will turn out.

Tons of love & luck to you, keep going with the counselling - it helped me hugely (as an individual not just in terms of my marriage).

Dear Bugsy just a quick message to say that I've been thinking of you and hope that the councelling is helping or at least moving in the right direction.LOL GRMUM

Hi Batters, thanks for asking. Not really a great deal to report. We managed to go away last week. It was a holiday we'd had booked up a long time ago but I wasn't sure I could face going right up until the last moment. Indeed, we nearly didn't go, as the night before our departure he received another sexually explicit text from "her". I went ballistic (well for me anyway), however he assured me that it was a mistake and couldn't be for him etc. etc. etc. I insisted that he call her and say this was totally unacceptable. Of course, he only got her voicemail. Anyhow a message did eventually come back with apologies saying it was intended for someone else - believe that if you will.
By this stage, I was sufficiently desperate to go away, not to mention fully packed with a very excited 3.5 yr old that I just thought "S*d it, lets go".
Holiday was fine but slightly unreal. I suspended hostilities on a minimal level just to ensure that I would enjoy my holiday - he thinks that is a sign of great progress.
Came home, he was grumpy and bad tempered. Mothers Day was a total washout. I was given a CD that he wanted and a book he had forgotten to give his Dad for Christmas - wrapped in paper I had bought myself. No lie in, no cup of tea in bed, not even a bunch of daffodils. No attempt to get the children to scribble in my card. Very, very poor effort from someone who is supposed to be trying their best!!!!
Last night he was on some kind of training course and was very reluctant to give me the details of where he was going to be. Finally prized them out of him and naturally when I 'phoned to send a ficticious fax to "her", she was also booked in to the conference centre!
Next week he is off to the States for nearly two weeks - and guess who'll be going too?
Anyway, counselling again this evening, although gruelling it is definitely helpful.
I remember way back when I started this whole thread, I think it was Phillipat asked what I was going to do if I did find out he was having an affair and I am still wondering. I have a friend with two small children currently going through a divorce and it is so painful for everyone that the thought of that route is very off putting and yet a nagging voice in my head tells me that he is jerking my chain!
So, I feel I have progressed no further.

Bugsy, just want to say I am thinking of you and I am sorry that you feel that no progress is being made. Best wishes, Winniex

Bugsy, I am so sorry to read your sad account. I'm sure I'm not the only Mumsnetter who wishes I could do something to help. Is this woman really in the habit of sending out sexually explicit text messages to a variety of men?. It must be just so hard for you to think of him staying at the same hotel as your husband.

The Mother's Day experience also sounds very disappointing. How is he with your children these days? Is he making an effort to be more involved?

Bugsy - I know this is none of my business, but do you REALLY think he's going to stop having an affair with this woman. If was he would've done so by now and he hasn't. He is making a fool of you and I can't believe you are being nice about this and even WANTING to try to make it work.

I will probably get a row from people for saying this, but I think I'm probably echoing what a lot of people are thinking.

He is STILL cheating on you, He's STILL lying to you.... he's NOT going to stop and counselling will not change that. He couldn't even be *rsed getting you a proper present for Mother's Day!! I think now is the time to face the reality of the situation...PLEASE!!!
It will hurt for a while but what if he decides to leave you for this woman???? I would get in there first and turf him out. You'll manage, I'm sure you will. You can't continue like this.

I'm sorry for this and I know some people think Counselling is the be all and end all, but this leapard is not going to change his spots. He's even being blatant about it!! What a pig!

I can see why you feel like that Mum2Toby but I know that if I was in Bugsy's shoes I probably wouldn't have turfed by DH out by now either. Divorce shattered my DH's childhood and even now, more than 20 years later dominates his relationship with his parents. If it were me, I would be afraid that by chucking him out, once it's public all sorts of people would weigh in with their views, I would lose control of the situation and divorce would become inevitable. I would also be frankly terrified at the thought of being on my own for good with 2 small children.

Doesn't make his behavious any less awful though.

Mum2Toby, I am frightened of walking away - not just for myself but for my children too. I know I would survive but at what emotional cost to all of us?
He does work with this woman, she is in his team, so I knew from day one of finding out that she wouldn't just disappear. I have no proof that the affair is ongoing - if I am going to ask him to leave the three of us, I have to be absolutely sure.
Would anyone like to recommend a private detective in the States?

Bugsy - what will it take?? Will have to catch them 'at it' to make you see that he's cheating on you. He has a total lack of respect for you.

My praents are still together even though my Dad cheating on my Mum for YEARS with the same woman. We all found out about it (long story) she was too scared to leave him. I ended up confronting him and he ended it with us all listening on the phone. My Mum has been miserable ever since. She didn't have the strength to leave and has regretted it ever since. My sister and my 2 brothers agree that it would have been much better if they'd just went their separate ways. Don't end up like my Mum.... 50 years+, depressed, in a miserable marriage and a lifetime of regrets.

I know this is harsh, but is there really anything left to salvage within your relationship??? He is cheating on you, he hasn't stopped and he isn't even trying to treat you any better... I must be missing something here?? >confused<

Bugsy - I can't help with Private Dec. I'm afraid, but if it's proof you need then I think that's definitely the way to go. But the chances are you are not going to like what he/she finds.

Good luck.

Bugsy, I'm not quite as adament as Mum2Toby but at the same time relate to where she is coming from. I think the decision should be yours whether or not you can cope with living with someone who has failed in his side of the bargain of living together. From your mails I have to say he doesn't sound like he's going to change and be it with this woman or another he's not going to hold up his end of the the current agreement. I think you seem to be asking yourself whether or not a change in your relationship (one where you accept his philandering) is better than one without him. That is a decision you should make for yourself and don't involve your children. Where will you be happiest - to me your children will be happy when you are happy and will struggle to be happy if you are not. All I would say is that don't stay together for the kids. Divorce is only awful if you and your (not so) dh decide to make it that way. Remember that it takes two or more to argue and that you can be the one in charge here. Don't be afraid of divorce because of other people's experiences you can take charge here (although I'm sure it wont be easy) and ensure that as far as your children are concerned its as peaceful as possible. During divorce two people may hate each others guts but they are still both the parents and should still raise their children jointly. Neither am I counselling divorce to you (so don't get me wrong). I just don't think its right for two people who basically grow to hate each other to live in the same house together. I don't think that is better for the kids and the atmosphere is horrendous for all. You should be thinking about what will make you happy. What's happened has happened however horrible so moving forward where would you want to be in a year's time?

Mum2Toby, I wish I could be as sure as you are of my situation. I agree that he takes me for granted and is seriously crap in the present department but I can't end our marriage on that basis and I just don't have sufficient proof that his affair is ongoing.
If it makes you feel better, you have my assurance that I am no doormat and I do not intend to spend even the next 5 years of my life in an unhappy relationship - leave alone 50!
I suppose what I am trying to say, is that I need to know deep inside my heart that I have given him every opportunity to prove to me that he wants to stay and that he wants to make our marriage work.
I don't want to look back in 5 years time and regret that I threw the towel in too quickly.

By the way loads of good wishes and hoping you have a lot of good times to come.

XXXX

Opps Bugsy, our paths crossed

Wills - wise words. I think that's basically what I meant, but I got a bit emotional and perhaps tactless.

Sorry Bugsy - I'm not meaning to be nasty in any way. I'm just going by your previous posts and it certainly 'sounds' like he is cheating on you or why would he be so cagey and so flippant!! I just can't see how you can make it work. It needs 2 of you trying and he isn't and doesn't sound like he ever will.
It's an awful situation. I can see why you want to give it your best shot, but do you really think he might not be cheating???

Bugsy, I'm so sorry you are in this awful limbo and can see why you don't want to chuck your husband out, even if you feel like it. Young children complicate things no end. As you say, you know your husband has to work with this woman, anyway, so he can't stop seeing her.

The sixty million dollar question is how can he prove that there is nothing going on between them? And FWIW I think you do need proof. After all this deception, an explicit text message just before your holiday to cap it all, you deserve more than his assurances that nothing is going on.

So how do you get that proof? no wonder you mention hiring a private detective. If you really are thinking along those lines what are your views on meeting this woman? I am sure you must have mulled it over. I can speak from some experience here - years ago I broke up with a serious boyfriend but some months later he wanted to get back together. I knew his curent girlfriend was still on the domestic scene, despite his protestations. I let this situation go on for a few weeks, but nothing was resolved. My boyfriend was trying to let her down gently, but hadn't quite got round to telling her to leave. I gave him an ultimatum. He didn't meet it. I knew my boyfriend had great power to hurt me, so I planned an all or nothing meeting. I arranged to meet him in a public place. I then contacted the other girl and arranged to meet her too - same place, 20 minutes after my boyfriend was due to arrive. I didn't tell either of them that I had invited the other. When my boyfriend arrived, I asked him again if he really wanted me back. He said yes. Then his girlfriend arrived. Both parties were shocked and totally angry with me of course. I was beyond caring - I just felt we all needed to know where we stood. I asked my boyfriend to tell the girl what he had just told me. He did and the girl moved out of his home the next day.
I am sure the girl hated me, but I might have saved her from a long drawn out and confusing time. My boyfriend and I went on to have a good relationship once he had got over his anger with me and I had built up my trust in him again. He kept to his word and was never to my knowledge unfaithful. But it took a year for us to get back on an even keel.

In hindsight arranging that meeting was a great thing for me to do. I had given my boyfriend all the chances I could to prove his commitment to me. He didn't take them. I knew his dithering was making the other girl miserable too. I needed to hear my boyfriend say to this girl that he wanted me. I felt I had nothing to lose in the end.

This type of showdown is probaly not for you - I just wanted to show you that sometimes it can work. Of course I had no children too, and the girl and my boyfriend did not work together.But I wonder if some sort of meeting might work for you? even meeting up with this woman alone? From your messages it sounds as if she is very aware or your anger and knows that you and your husband are having a very difficult time. Why are she and your dh being so insensitive?

Alternatively, can you ask your husband to find another job? Could he start looking for work with another company? even if there is some financial loss, what it this against your peace of mind and your future together? People leave jobs all the time for personal reasons. FWIW I really think you have a total right to insist this now and that might be your best option.

Bugsy I think you are wise to be making decisions slowly. I also think it must be really hard to know what to do when he still seems to think there's no problem with his behaviour. When he is home is there anywhere you could stay for a while just so you're not tripping over him and so you let him know that is he carries on your marriage will be finished?

He seems to be incredibly thick skinned and just not understand the conseuqeunces of his actions. Why not print out some choice bits of this thread and leave it on his pillow? Maybe he will then realise that you are considering leaving him.

Another thought. Could you send him a letter whilst he is away? Spelling out the consequences of his actions. EG "If you continue to behave like an absolute fool I will ask you to leave" etc etc. Sometime it can be easier to write down what you want to say. If he receievd it on day 2 of his trip away he could ponder what he actually wants. I want to bang his head against the wall and say "wake up you idiot- don't you see what you are about to lose" so god knows what you feellike doing to him.