Michael Jackson programme ..

[bundle]

..is on tonight, where he's being followed by Martin Bashir including around the infamous hanging the baby from the balcony incident (on Tonight..with Trevor MacDonald) - so don't forget to watch it should be a hoot
(I'm off out so I've just left an ansaphone message for dh to record it )

Well ... I have read this whole thread through and we have yet to see this treat - it will be on NZ telly on Sunday night ... can't wait.
We have had a bit of a preview ... done by another UK journalist about all the money MJ has earned over the years and how much he is worth now etc - that was fascinating in itself.
I look at the scenes of the Jackson 5 singing and just think - what a shame ... he was such a beautiful child ... that smile ... those eyes ... and now look at him - a monster ...
Oh ... I did read in a crappy NZ women's magazine (not that I buy them of course ... it was in the dentist ... honest !!!) that he does dye his son's hair blonde and have it straightened.
A question ... if you knew someone who was treating children in this way would you think of reporting them?

Tink, where do you get all these wonderful links from?

He has definitely given himself LaToyah's nose. Presumably hers is fake too? Is he striving for her chin as well?

The creepy pics are from the zoo visit, aren't they? It looks as if the boy has a hat on under his veil, or else he suddenly got short black hair instead of straightened blond hair. But he does look blackish - I thought that at the time. Their mother is white, isn't she? It is possible for a mixed couple to have children of any colour from completely white through to completely black.

The girl's hair looks in the pic to be lighter than it did in the prog - that pigtail was quite dark and slightly fuzzy at the edges?

I thought this - copied from a site reporting on the World Conference Against the Sexual Exploitation of Children might be interesting:

"Neither paedophiles nor preferential abusers constitute a homogeneous group in terms of their modus operandi, and three major behaviour patterns have been identified by the clinicians and law enforcement agents who work with them. First, there is 'the seduction pattern'. This is typically followed by offenders who are motivated by a form of narcissism, seeing some lost part of themselves in the ?innocent? child, and/or having a strong sense of emotional congruence with the children they abuse. This type of abuser is an excellent manipulator (often of adults and public opinion, as well as of children). They use affection, attention and gifts to court children, are willing to spend long periods of time 'grooming' their victims in preparation for the abuse and use threats, blackmail and physical violence to discourage disclosure."

And this - from a pro-paedophile website, offers and insight into how a paedophile's mind works. Sounded really familiar to me...
here is reason to suppose that many of those who prefer children want to relate well to them, in a way that does not apply to those for whom they are mere substitutes. Those who prefer children not surprisingly like to spend a lot of time in their company; they like to know them and be friendly. Just as adult-orientated grown-ups often go to considerable pains to make a good impression on their sexual partners, so do many paedophiles. Finding that their sexual preference is for children, they also come to like and love them. The eminent criminologist Professor D J West noted this many years ago, before it became fashionable cynically to characterise paedophile courtship as so-called "grooming". Noticing the kindness of many paedophiles he observed that: "Their sincere fondness for their objects of sexual desire sometimes leads them to quite striking acts of charity in efforts to further the child's happiness or future prospects." (O'Carroll; 1980; p59)
This benevolent outlook found confirmation in a study by K. Howells of non-aggressive offenders against girls. He said, "I feel that children are likeable to paedophiles in ways that are not purely physical; this would be consistent with the idea that the paedophilic offender may actually feel affection for his victim.

I am genuinely interested as to why people think he is NOT a paedophile. I obviously don't know for certain but it certainly seems as clear as the..... He's such a classic case.

Willow2, of course it is his nose - after all, he paid for it (through the nose, perhaps...)

I am astounded at some of the vitriolic comments I have read here.
Whatever you think of the guy some of this stuff is plain nasty.

I think MJ is a total control freak and believes that he can do exactly what he likes. I think one of his "techniques" is to get people to feel sorry for him. Like all abusers he is an accomplished liar.

Another interesting piece from the Guardian - about parents mucking up their kids:

www.guardian.co.uk/parents/story/0,3605,888894,00.html

(it says that Jermaine and Janet do back up Michael's allegations about their horrible father...)

Yes, CAM, did you see the bit about how preferential abusers are excellent manipulators of public opinion as well as of children? I just thought it all rang so true of MJ. Paedophiles of this type don't dislike children - they 'love' them and honestly feel that their sexual behaviour is an expression of love. I ask again, did that big pubescent boy really look like he was the milk,cookies and bedtime story type? Nah...

Janh, the problem is that the child he was referring to as "coloured" was Blanket whose mother, he claimed, was black. I don't know much about genetics but would imagine that with MJ being black (or he certainly used to be ) and the mother being black the child wouldn't have looked quite so white.

I have my doubts that MJ used his "sperm cells" as he says, sorry to be gross but I just couldn't imagine him 'doing the deed'. I think this is just more lies.

CAM, I never thought he "did the deed" anyway, and using the phrase "my sperm cells" confirmed it for me - I still think they are his though - by AI? (Turkey baster or a proper job.)

Somebody said they didn't think the older 2 looked even blackish - I thought the boy did. The baby looked darker-skinned than both of them, I thought, from the little visible under the veil, but I didn't mean him. MJ did say his mother was black - but he also said, at first, that he had a relationship with her - and that wasn't true so who knows about her colour either?

Lots of "issues" there...! I wonder if he ever has seen a shrink?

Sorry - Demented - where did I get CAM from????

Yes, Jasper, Mumsnetters can be pretty mean to public personalities.

Billy Connolly suffered some pretty horrendous child abuse; I don't remember him dangling any babies out of windows. Brooke Shields suffered her entire childhood (and puberty) in front of cameras and spotlights; fairly ditto for Liz Taylor. Liz & Brooke may be weird, too, but at least they aren't in charge of any children.

Have been thinking about this now as someone in the office said we are all seeing peadopliles everywhere, and poor blokes are guilty without trial. There seem to be plenty of people out that who think that MJ is 'innocent' of abuse. So am trying to get this straight in my head If you take away all the 'spin' and PR what you have is..

a 44 year old man without a history of sexual adult relationships

a man who is clearly 'screwed up' by his childhood

a man who thinks he is still a child and wants children to love him

a man with pictures of himself naked surrounded by naked baby boys

a powerful man with money and stature, who many children would admire and want to be with

and a man wo spends the night with young boys in his bed..

surely if this man lived down your street you would not let your child stay with him? so surely we shouldn't let anyone elses child stay either? Hmm, that's it straightened out..I think??.. now to convince my male colleagues

Don't want to sound offensive to anyone but many of those points about MJ could be said about most prophets.

Whether he's "done the deed" or not, I still think there's a lot a psychological damage being done in that bizarre household. I mean, what do "his" kids make of their "father" sharing his bedroom with 12-year-old boys? And what's going to happen to Gavin when he hits puberty? Is he going to be replaced by a younger model, or (heaven forbid) is Jackson going to fork out for plastic surgery so he can remain forever 12?

Brooke Shields is married & pregnant and Liz Taylor is a - natural - mother of three! And a granny! She may be a bit bonkers but nothing compared to MJ. Brooke Shields seems quite normal, really. No funfair in her backyard and no entourage of life-sized dummies.

And yes, that painting of MJ as St Sebastian. Eeek!!

MJ is a terrible, terrible father to those children - whoever's kids they may be. What possible chance do they have in life, even if he does keep his grubby paws off them.

Oops, natural mother of four, and also has an adopted daughter with Richard Burton. All seem comparatively normal -married with kids and out of the limelight. Her daughter in law did have a drug problem and had AIDS, hence her campaigning on the issue.

Some messages at cross purposes here I think! Frieda, by "doing the deed" Demented and I both meant had he actually physically fathered his children - not what else he might get up to. (Or not.)

I got the impression Gavin was one of many but that MJ was showing him off because he is proud of having befriended someone with a terminal illness who was subsequently cured - who knows, maybe he thinks he had something to do with it? Anyway Gavin seemed happy enough to be one of a crowd. With a bit of luck he will move on and grow up reasonably normal.

BTW, Demented, did you see Tinker's link to the pictures of the older 2 at the zoo - with the purple veils on? That's where the boy looked blackish. I wonder if the purpose of the veils/masks is as much to stop us seeing exactly what their features are like as to protect them from being recognised - maybe he plans to alter their appearance later to match his own.

Judging by Gavin's complexion he was well into puberty already. His days are numbered....

Sorry, janh & demented ? up to my usual trick of reading too fast and not paying enough attention Still think poor Gavin isn't displaying behaviour typical of a well-adjusted 12-year-old, though. My 12-year-old nephew wouldn't be seen dead clutching an adult's (or even a same-age friend, come to that) hand whilst leaning moonily on his shoulder.
Hope I'm wrong, though.

I think the overall impression was of someone desperately trying to remain a child himself without any sane people around him to keep him in some kind of reality. I do not think he is an "abuser" but am certain that those children of his are going to grow up with some "issues"! Time will tell on that one I guess but masks everytime you step outside? Can't see them being too thrilled with that for many more years.....

Janh, I did see the pictures and yes the boy did look "coloured" but my memory of the programme was that MJ was claiming the baby's (Blanket) mother was black which doesn't seem to add up to me but then he was lying throughout the programme anyway. The mother of the first two children was his dermatologist nurse who was white. As for "doing the deed" I didn't want to be too graphic but meant in every sense, I find it hard to believe the man has a sexual bone in his body (perhaps naive of me), IMO I don't think he would be capable of getting the sperm out for the turkey baster IYKWIM. I suppose it is just my memories of him a few years back, the king of clean, practically living life in an oxygen tank.

He is Radio Rental!

Demented, maybe they'd have to -ahem- stimulate his prostate like they do with bulls

Tinker, prophets?? am confused. Can't think of any that the list applies to (except the first one - don't think Jesus had any 'relationships did he?).