Advertising, marketing, the whole world in trouble etc...(deep!)

[Lizzer]

Hello all, going to break this big message up as I've been having problems posting, so bare with me...

This started on the celebrity b/feeding thread and it was just a comment from me after I was asked to expand on my opinion that formula milk should've only ever been used in circumstances where it was required to help a child survive and not stocked on the shelves at the supermarket. This has spiralled me into depths of the big old money-making and general-public-screwing machine known as advertising and how it has caused a lot of damage to our health, lifestyles and outlooks. I want to have a full on discussion about this and no holds barred. HOWEVER THIS IS NOT A SLAGGING OFF BOTTLE FEEDERS THREAD or BREAST FEEDING IS BEST THREAD and I don't want it to turn into one. Would be interested to hear if anyone agrees/disagrees with me though...

My original answer to back up my claim was this...
"quite simply yes I do think that. Like other mammals we drink the milk of our own species, when that is not available (through illness, death, abandonment etc) then a formula made of cow (goat /soya) based protein should be made available to the infant in order for it to thrive. I thought that was why formula was invented, slightly superior to giving cows milk nutrionally, easier for baby to digest. It was only the mass marketing strategies from the 1950's in the USA and GB that made formula seem equal or better than breast milk. Thank the lord we're finally getting to grips with the lasting damage that advertising can do (although there is little done to limit its growth.) But a bit late to change the way an entire generation thinks and now most mothers in our country have the added pressure of getting back to work in a few weeks/months and not much in the way of b/feeding support. Pity."

That's what i meant by it - not that it was Posh's fault that the whole world has gone temporarily nuts! Or, for that matter, that anyone who formula feeds is nuts - not at all, just put in a terrible position by the people who have no interest in their wellbeing, only what's in their wallet."

And to go on from that I'd like to add that, just incase someone thinks I'm making out that you only bottle feed if you've been blindly led by advertising - thereby making you a 'weak' person or something - that is not what I'm saying. The advertisers conned the doctors - it was the medical profession who sold it to the public. I mean, if most people are told something by your GP they tend to believe it as the truth- especially in the 50's and 60's. Now we have grandparents and parents telling their expectant daughters the very same information that has been passed down through the family -which you are definitely going to believe. The original promoter of formula milk must be having a rare old laugh from beyond his grave - talk about on to a winner...!

Personally, I can't see a way to withdraw it from the shelves of boots at £6 a tin or whatever. It has changed a huge area of life - the way we raise children. It can't be changed back again can it? In that case is advertising a form of our evolutionary process?

Another thing, does making the product more expensive discourage its use or simply push it into the realm of 'luxury' goods. I wonder what would happened if it was all subsidised and became, like, 50p a tub. Would that make a difference to how many people used it? I've never heard the argument 'I was going to formula feed but it was too pricey' used by ANYONE. Plus you are entitled to free formula if you are on benefits - but if you breast feed you can 7 pints of cows milk a week instead!! Go figure that price difference...

And finally....!!!

To question Eulalia's statement from the previous thread - are people really making an informed choice about feeding in today's world? Is that possible given the amount of pressure from one side or the other?
The sting in the tail is that the promotion of formula has led today's mother to think that if
she 'fails' to breastfeed her child then she must feel guilty (or be expected to feel guilty) about choosing formula. It has become a 'choice' as 'second best' (even the companies are made to write that on a tin of the stuff - how blatantly mean is that, haven't people got enough parenting guilt without it!) so it will hold all the attachments of the 'booby prize' in its status. What I'm proposing is that if formula hadn't been so wildly advertised as better than breastmilk in the first place - just different - the competition between the two may not have arisen?

Sorry, its heavy I know - but if anyone's up for the discussion my typing fingers are ready!

Just to say I can see exactly where you're coming from and pretty much agree with your views. Don't think this issue is just about formula feeding though - you could take the same view of the whole food industry, which promotes a diet which is helping us become fat and unhealthy, whilst we become progressively deskilled re cooking simple, non value added non processed food. No time to argue this case fully here, could spiral into a whole debate about the nature of global capitalism....

A bit more on topic - did you see that the govnt are finally proposing to change the 'free formula for mums on benefits' scheme. The proposed replacement scheme sounded a bit dodgy (supermarket vouchers) but surely anything's better than sending out the message that formula is so essential you can have it for free if you can't afford it.

I think there are two different levels of debate around formula/bfeeding. On the one hand we all make individual choices and need those to be as informed as possible. That is fine and how we all behave on a day to day level. HOWEVER on a policy level, viewing it as simply a matter of informed choice is probably exactly what the formula manufacturers want. Somehow we need to create a culture in which breastfeeding is seen as normal rather than problematic. This is quite hard to do without making people who can't/don't breastfeed feel bad about it.
That's all I can think of to say right now - but good thread Lizzer, will wait to see how long it takes to reach boiling point!!!

Hi Elliot, I was a bit worried how to contain this so it doesn't spiral into debating globalisation as you mention - but it IS a huge part of this and certainly the promotion of formula in 3rd world countries is just beyond sickening...

Good news about the government slying away from free formula thanks for telling me. They seem to have gone about it in a good way too, if you can use supermarket vouchers for any food rather than just formula or milk it takes the emphasis away that it is 'normal' without jeopardising the health of babies. When I claimed income support for the first time dd was about 4 motnhs old, I was sent some milk vouchers. They have two places to stamp one for formula and one for 7 pints of freash milk. Guess which side they had stamped for me without even asking? I had to send them all back with a note detailing how I wouldn't be needing formula but could i have a bit of semi for my cornflakes!!

Lizzer, have done my bit by doing a spot of militant breastfeeding in public
In this country I think it's such a shame the cost savings when you breastfeed (both in terms of money and health benefits) aren't publicised more. In the developing world, the whole formula thing is a disgrace.

I suspect many people don't bother too much with b/f because our maternity leaves are so incredibly short - 18 weeks. A lot of people must think that as they won't be able to breastfeed when at work, and the early stages for some people are problematic/painful then why bother. I believe the Scandinavian countries with 90+ breastfeeding rates have a year's paid maternity leave.

I remember when I had ds 3 years ago bottle feeding wasn't covered in the parenting classes and in the hospital the attitude was that if you were bottle feeding you were left to your own devices and not shown anything. I breastfed and had loads of help and encouragement. Perhaps if they want to run a campaign for breastfeeding they should emphasise that you lose weight a lot quicker (but not that if you keep the same food intake you put it on again when you stop). At the end of the day its a personal choice and its about time the public stopped looking at women who breastfeed as happy hippies who like showing their boobs off. I think the ad men keep pushing all the fortified vitamins etc in formula as if its the only choice that your baby can get this fantastic diet. Maybe its a male thing, they don't like seeing breasts for anything but sexual enjoyment so they push formula and make it sound like the best thing ever. I don't know its seems there is a way to make money out of everything nowadays after all you can even pay someone to have a baby for you now. Sorry if this seems disjointed but I'm at work and have to keep stopping if it doesn't make sense I'll try and sort it out later.

Which is why midwives and other health profs should be providing info about mixed feeding (especially later on) as well, rather than seeing it as an all or nothing situation.
When I was in hospital after having dd I was amazed that of the 20+ women in my bay during my time there there was only myself and one other woman who where bf - everybody else was using the dinky bottles they provide. Was it coincidence that the bf's were the only 2 "middle class" women there? (But not wearing florals and pearls I promise!) Is there the same level of "informed choice" amongst all communities? My hospital was in the middle of a large Bengali community, and to a woman the Bengali's I met in hospital bottle fed. These women also seemed IME less likely to attend the hospital ante natal classes (I was in the ward before the birth and in the 7 groups I saw doing the antenatal info visits there were only 3 Bengali couples) It made me wonder whether the NHS birth services (and bf info) are geared up to cater to all cultures in the UK

I think the cost of breast v bottle feeding issue is a bit spurious, to be honest. I imagine I certainly spent as much on laundry, breast pads (washable ones totally useless for me) etc as I did on formula. I was soaking wet for the whole time I bf and couldn't wait to stop. And I am 'informed' and know that bf is better etc. Just not all it's cracked up to be.

I think megg has made agood point about the sexualisation of women being significant in teh relatively low bf rates in thsi country (and the US?) We seem to have a very peurile attitude to womens bodies which I' m sure does hinder soem women.

However, bottelfeeding women got very little attention in hospital when I was there (not nice for them) and it certainly wasn't really discussed as an option at my non-NCT ante natal classes.

tinker, I meant the cost relative to formula for low-income families who are the ones who seem to switch to the bottle quickest. I think it would make a difference to them.

My antenatal class definitely promoted breast feeding. However it would have been more helpful to also address the issues of those of us who were returning to work after 15 weeks. If I had some decent help with expressing I might have managed that rather than the mixed feeding I eventually opted for. And all the advice about not letting the baby near a bottle/dummy because of nipple confusion backfired when he needed to take one and wouldn't. So I agree with those of you that say that addressing women's needs would help and Aloha's comment on short maternity leave definitely applied to me.

Also the cost issue is probably individual, but I'm sure I spent loads less when breastfeeding than bottle feeding. For me the washing would have been present whatever because of DS's habbit of beig sick on me and my bedding.

Prufrock - sounds a lot like my hospital (The Royal London) where both times I have been the only mother on the maternity ward to breastfeed. I totally agree with the sentiments about promoting breastfeeding as the norm but I also would like to see some more emphasis on accepting that breastfeeding beyond six months or so isn't disgusting/unnatural etc etc. Interestingly India Knight wrote an article about the government's plans to give b/f mums vouchers to match the value of the free formula. Her take was that this was basically unhelpful meddling by the middle classes.....

This is a really interesting one.

I'm not sure I really believe in the advertising-changing-our-culture argument - I think the human race is just programmed to always go for the easy option. For the last 1000 years there are plenty of examples of inventions we have embraced because they made our life easy, even if we got a less good result - formula is just another.

Now I know someone will come back on this to say breastfeeding is much easier than bottle. I agree, it can be. But not for all women for a variety of reasons, and often not right at the beginning.

There have always been women who couldn't breastfeed or wouldn't breastfeed - hence wet nurses. For much of the 18th & 19th century upper class women did not breastfeed to speak of, but passed over to wet nurses. This was principally an attempt to encourage upper class women to have children closer together and discourage working class women from having so many children (the contraceptive effect of breastfeeding). So historically we have probably been given the impression that breastfeeding is something you only do if you can't afford to get someone else to do it for you.

Working class women who couldn't breastfeed tended to use asses milk, which is actually quite close to human milk in composition. But it wasn't until we learned about sterilisation that bottle feeding really became a viable alternative - but historically there always has been an alternative.

But it is certainly true that a whole generation almost completely turned away from breastfeeding in the 50s and 60s (my mum breastfed but I believe it was culturally a real battle for her). I think a big part of this was the post-war views on how women should present themselves (not showing breasts), coupled with a real cultural change towards machinery, obsessive cleanliness (easier to see a bottle is clean) etc. It will take time for that cultural view to change.

I live in a part of the country where bottle feeding is the norm. Both types of feeding were discussed at parentcraft classes with breast encouraged but not shoved at us. However, one woman said she 'did not like the thought' of breastfeeding and I think that sort of attitude is quite common. I was the only woman breastfeeding on the maternity ward the night I was in.

Not really going to a conclusion with this one, just throwing thoughts out. But, I did want to say I don't agree with Lizzer on her opinion that bottles should only be used as last resort. I didn't agree with the woman on my parentcraft class but I support her in her way to feed her child in the way she feels most comfortable. I believe that formula is nutritionally 'good enough', albeit not the best choice. Let's face it, parenting is tough enough, expensive enough blah blah blah as it is.

bells2, do you remember where India Knight's article was? I'd like to read it

Bundle it was ages ago in the Sunday Times - I think probably around 18 months ago when the idea was first mooted. I actually wrote to her about it but unsurprisingly received no response. As an aside, she has often hinted darkly at the reasons why she was unable to breastfeed.

darkly??? I'm intrigued.
She usually annoys the hell out of me whenever I read her anyway, so it's probably just as well..

bells2 Thats because it was!

hmmmmm and unless I'm mistaken, you work for an investment bank as do I. Sounds like you are my doppelganger!. If you don't mind me asking, do you live near the Royal London or did you end up there by accident??

I think with longer and better paid maternity leave and a cultural change (no more page 3 type things might help) the trend towards formula could be reversed. After all, don't 80% of Australian mother b/f? They aren't SO different to us - mind you it's warmer and so nice to pull your top up in the park! That doesn't apply to Norway though. I think maybe our health policy people should look over there and see what they do. But without longer maternity leave I don't think any initiatives will work. I too don't really understand people who won't even give b/f a try. If it's awful/ painful/doesn't work etc etc, yes, I can understand that - but not to even give it a go. I have a friend (not that close) who never did and I don't dare raise the issue with her for fear of offending her. I have heard of men persuading their partners not to which I think is unbearably sad.

C'mon Tinker - where is your rant? the name India Knight has been mentioned!

Both - I live near, but intended not to go to hospital at all - then my body intervened. Are I sure we've not got a multiple personality disorder

Aloha, Australian maternity leave provisions are broadly similar to those in the UK but there is just such a much better focus on public health issues there generally.

Prufrock, next time you see a cross looking mother in Waitrose at Canary Wharf with an insane toddler standing up in the trolley bellowing at everyone to get out of his ship's way and a giant pudding of a baby manfully munching her way through vast amounts of food, at least you'll know who it is!.