Advertising, marketing, the whole world in trouble etc...(deep!)

[Lizzer]

Hello all, going to break this big message up as I've been having problems posting, so bare with me...

This started on the celebrity b/feeding thread and it was just a comment from me after I was asked to expand on my opinion that formula milk should've only ever been used in circumstances where it was required to help a child survive and not stocked on the shelves at the supermarket. This has spiralled me into depths of the big old money-making and general-public-screwing machine known as advertising and how it has caused a lot of damage to our health, lifestyles and outlooks. I want to have a full on discussion about this and no holds barred. HOWEVER THIS IS NOT A SLAGGING OFF BOTTLE FEEDERS THREAD or BREAST FEEDING IS BEST THREAD and I don't want it to turn into one. Would be interested to hear if anyone agrees/disagrees with me though...

I can totally understand why - it is such a sensitive and personal subject. I was at Kings which is supposedly a very b/f friendly hospital. I lost of a lot of blood during my cs due to placenta praevia which I suspect had something to do with my early supply probs, but I'd never heard of Domperidone until I got onto mumsnet. Also I had a bossy midwife (agency) who meant well but basically forced formula onto me without any reassurance that this didn't necessarily mean the end of b/f. The counsellor was fab though, & it would have meant a lot to me to have met her earlier. I think a bit of NHS money spent on more b/f counsellors in maternity wards would reap huge benefits later.

aloha - thanks. Yes indeed to both you and jane101 it is incredibly difficult to talk about these things without offending an individual. I don't really know what to do about it as many have found my posts informative...

I am not alone in this as there have been things Ive read on mumsnet which have made me feel guilty (such as smacking) and I've just accepted that I don't know everything and I'll just know better next time. I know this is hard to do if you've wanted to b/feed (because of the decison being so hard to reverse) but this means it is all the more important that women do get the support when they want to do it and for some there may be another baby or a relative or in time grandchildren...

anyway I was talking because I've seen the word guilt so many times in these posts and felt it myself (although fortunately my first son finally got the hang of it) and I was exploring the issue of why people feel like this and that people shouldn't (sounds prescriptive though - I am sorry) because they may just not know the facts or have adequate support.

((((huge breath)))

Which makes me think - women talk of ?trying to breastfeed? with the implication in that statement that failure is almost inevitable... So we subconsciously have little confidence even to start with... What would the Norwegians think of this.. they obviously just get on with it. As I?ve said before I saw b/feeding as something as necessary, the same as pregnancy ? but that by implication means that I am saying bottle feeding is strange and unnatural (which I suppose deep down I do feel) but how can I say that without dreadfully insulting people who do it? And surely this at the end of the day is the difference ? British people do see bottle-feeding as natural/normal whereas Norwegians don?t.

Sorry again if this offends anyone (you don't have to read my posts).

And so to finally return to Lizzer?s thoughts (are you still reading this Lizzer?) I think the govt here is trying to do two things at once. Firstly they are promoting breastfeeding in quite a high-handed way which is why it comes across as propagandising (ironic and strange really that people have to be told to breastfeed) and then on the other hand saying that formula feeding is OK and we can have some restricted forms of advertising and milks generally available. It seems rather a confusing message.... however it is difficult to see a way out of it. To say formula feeding is bad/wrong one takes away the liberties of those who want to do it and make out that f/feeding mothers are bad when half the time they hardly had a real choice in the first place because they are in the dark and getting confusing messages .... (except of course for the people who really didn't want to do it)

What I want to know is how many of them truly, truly really don?t want to breastfeed because I bet it is not that many. Perhaps having it so freely available (like shoved in your nose practically the minute the baby is born) does make it a temptation. If it was seen more as a ?last resort? would more women b/feed? I am sure they would ? as Julie F said below if she?d been given more encouragement she would have given it a go....

I'm off to hide my head under a stone ...

What is Domperidone, please? aloha mentioned it in her post and I've scrolled down but can't see it anywhere else.

Aloha, I'm coming at this as someone who has also used formula, firstly with ds1, from the age of 3 weeks and then supplementing for a time with another baby. I've since learned that my thyroid conditon may well have been behind my slightly inadequate milk supplies. So I know that formula has a place. But I also know that given the choice I would have prefered to breast feed 100% of the time.

Eulalia/Jane101, I've said this before on Mumsnet but I'll repeat it again. I also felt guilty about my 'failure' to feed ds1 (in the 70's, with timed feeds, test weighing, yuk, yuk, yuk) until someone said, only a couple of years ago, that I'd done the best I could with the knowledge I had and the support I had at the time. And since that day I've given up the guilt complex because I think that wise person was absolutely right.

Domperidone (think this sp is corr) is a medication that can increase & bring on milk supply. I heard about it from mears, one of the 'resident'midwives on this site.

Doperidone(Motilium) is a drud used for gastric upset such as bloatedness. It can be bought over the counter. A useful side effect for women with true supply problems is that it increases prolactin levels thus increasing milk production. It should be tried when all other things have failed such as correct postioning, frequent feeds and/or expressing. In our unit we give it to women expressing for premature babies, whose milk often tails off before the baby is ready to go to the breast.

Here is a different angle to breast feeding promotion that is now part of being a baby friendly hospital. In order to make breast feeding the norm in our culture, women are no longer asked how they intend to feed at their booking visit. Information on breastfeeding is given.
At birth, skin-to-skin contact is initiated unless there is a problem with baby or mum. Most babies after about 30mins will start to root for the breast. The mum is then offered assistance to breast feed. At that point she will say she is bottle feeding, if that is the case. She is then asked what type of milk she would like, without any fuss.
One of the reasons this is advocated is that sometimes women make the choice to bottle feed early in pregnancy. It is then documented in her notes. Some women feel that they cannot then change their minds once they have delivered.
A lot of midwives have had difficulty doing this because they feel it might have an adverse effect on the woman. However I have seen a number of women say that they would like to try B/F at this time. Some have gone on to feed where otherwise they may not have. Some have tried it and not liked it - fair enough. They have said that they were glad to have seen whether they would like it or not.

Norway did have a B/F rate in the 50% mark years ago and it was turned around by making breastfeeding the norm. in society. Britain certainly has a long way to go.

Thanks, mears and aloha. Has this drug been around a long time? Nobody ever offered it to me...

mears, have you ever noticed any difference in b/f success when a baby is born early by elective caesarian? Part of my lack of success seemed to be down to the fact that mine were very feeble suckers and used to fall asleep after 5 minutes. (Plus I never produced much milk but never knew which was cause and which effect.) Would it be hormonal, or developmental, or was it just me?

Janh, I have mentioned on another thread - about mixed feedong breast/bottle I think - about problems that can arise after early elective C/S. My friend's SIL breast fed her 1st ds for over a year. He was delivered by emergency C/S after being in labour for a number of hours at 42 weeks. Her second ds was an elective C/S at 38 weeks and she was unable to establish a good milk supply. Was OK 1st week then dwindled. Baby was aditted with weight loss and despite help with feeding, expressing and domperidone, her milk supply was non-existant. I think the problem should have been identified earlier but it was oevrlooked to some extent because she had successfully fed before. The baby did not feed for very long periods and slept all night after week 1 - not a good start to building a good supply.

I think there can be problems building a good supply after elective C/S and there has been some research which supports that theory. However, I think that what this means is that staff should be vigilant in assisting mothers to B/F and be aware in this circumstance this COULD be a problem if the baby does not feed well and at regular intervals.

Domperidone has been around for a while but a couple of years ago the drug of choice was Maxalon. It is used for the treatement of nausea/vomiting and has a side effect of increasing prolactin levels. Unfortunately it can also cause depression. Domperidone does not have that side effect.

This is when it can be so hard to get the level of support right. The encouragement to feed more frequently and/or express to correct the problem can be seen by the mother as bullying someone to breastfeed. Problems are not always solved over a couple of days - it can take a while. When the milk supply is needing built up in the first few weeks I would discourage mothers from giving formula because I know that in the majority of cases the problem will be sorted. However, some times the mother feels that the midwife is not 'allowing' her to give the baby formula. It probably has to do with lack of confidence. Where I have had true success is when I have been able to build a good relationship with someone, and have been the main advice giver. I think it is a hopeless situation when a poor mum, concerned that she is starving her baby, is left to her own devices with lots of different midwives giving advice. In that situation it is the midwife that offers to give the baby a bottle who is seen as the redeemer of the situation, when in fact she is the one who has made the mum believe she couldn't do it, undermining her ability. I could go on forever

Sorry Lizzer - not the original issue raised by the initial post - interesting though

Have copied my previous long post over to the mixed breast/bottle thread in response to sothepoo's comment.It is probably better there anyway, more relevant to the topic.

I think the points people have raised about confidence are key. I'm not sure why, but I just presumed that I would bf, and would be able to do it. I don't know where this belief came from, but I do really believe that not anticipating nay problems helped me to not have any. I didn't get stressed when dd would not feed v. much to start off with (emergency c section, which apparently was the cause of her sleeping solidly for the first few days) and just presumed that she would sort herself and me out. This attitude was helped by some wonderful midwives who were informative and reassuring, and refused to give me a bottle at 2am one morning when dd was crying. I thought this was because I didn't have enough milk so she was hungry, they said it was just because she was a baby.

Can I ask at question, Eulalia, Mears - well anyone come to that (going back to my last message): do you think the design of the breast pump could be improved? do you think the government should spend money on this and then promote the benefits of expressing?

I personally think that breast pump design is not good as it could be and the range is very poor. Many of my b/f friends were not able to express using a breast pump. Most hand expressed, if they could. Some, like me, never got the hang of expressing milk so had to introduce mixed feeding. No choice.

Breastpumps are constantly being modified and updated. We have got new much more effective pumps in the hospital now. The design is much more like a baby sucking than before. Also Avent have a really good hanpump - the Isis.
However, I think one of the main problems is that women are not taught well how to express - especially by hand. It is more effective than a lot of pumps and costs nothing. Using expressing equipment is much more effective after the milk flow has been started by hand expressing in the first place. I think that the education of midwives and mothers is lacking rather than the equipment needing to be improved by the government. Baby Friendly hospitals are supposed to teach mothers how to hand express but I think all breastfeeding mums are getting that education. As with any product, the manufacturers are trying to meet the customers needs. Pumps are developing with a bigger range of models now. It would be good if hospitals/clinics could operate a loan scheme with pumps if mothers did not like hand expressing. The mothers with babies in special care in our hospital are lent pumps free of charge while expressing.Though the majority of women can express, there is a psychological aspect to expressing as well which cannot always be overcome whatever method is used. Back to confidence again.

I wish our hospital had loaned out breast pumps. It's good to hear the breast pump design and range is improving. I remember seeing only one or two designs in Mothercare, but that was eight years ago.

I was told how to breast feed but not how to hand express. I was told to follow the manufacturers instructions when I ased about breat pumps - with the comment that lots of people never got the hang of them. Didn't do much for my confidence!

My midwives and HVs could see I was b/f with no huge problems - my babies were both good feeders. Because of this, I think they assumed I would be able to express if I wanted to, and/or didn't understand why I might need to express rather than b/f because there was no medical reason.

darn it, I was hoping that Domperidone would turn out to be a miss-spelling of Dom Perignon...

Hello, wow its a great thread -took me about an hour to pick up where I left off! Thanks to everyone for contributing?

I?m very self-indulgent with these messages so please excuse me if I?m not keeping in with the flow. I just keep having ideas about the motivation behind the promotion of formula ? rather than the choice behind it. But just quickly their should be no-one having to justify their choice in feeding in this country. You can?t give people a choice then tell them which to pick?
With the stats. in Norway (thanks Mears) it seems that is the case too but the other way round. Is that the key then, maybe, to kicking this whole formula debate?
I'm sorry but I just don't buy it. The government aren't trying hard enough to push b/feeding or support it and why? Maybe they don't want to all that much...Just think about it - more b/feeders has got to equal more people off work (as your comments on breast pumps shows, Tigermoth, they aren't exactly great and if we had a 90% b/feeding rate I can't see all that many women finding expressing an easy option.)

Ok, so more women off work for longer - more benefits paid out to non workers- more breast feeding training to be paid for - huge loss in tax from formula milk if you think how many cans would NOT be sold each week. Ok we might have huge health benefits for the future but as far as the government is concerned there's no hard evidence of this so far... Does anyone REALLY think the government is doing all it can? In their mind does the implications on the economy not outweigh the good of mother?s milk? Any comments on this appreciated?

Also, what DID Norway do to flip the stats? Anyone know?

I was "taught" how to hand express by a student midwife (unsupervised)who does not have children (I asked her)and who had the leaflet in front of her while she was showing me what to do! Its no wonder that I couldn't do it! I still can't, even though I'm now a bit of a dab hand with the Isis pump! Perhaps, as its such a difficult thing to do correctly, it should be taught by someone with personal experience.

From my previous post I did ask what would have happened to the women who had no or v little maternal feelings towards having children. I suppose the children were looked after by others, as you said Eulalia. Animals do the same don?t they? How about this for a random thought. We humans now control the earth, the animals, the lives we lead. We systematically destroy and play around with nature til who knows what will happen. On a day to day basis we?re organising life in a such a way that it is impossible to find an equilibrium with nature, or certainly within our lifetimes (I don?t want to give up hope for a better future completely just yet!) Therefore how we feed our children IS a big deal, its another knife in the back for nature with a feeling that, ?Oh yes well you might have created us, Nature, you might have provided a planet of absolute wonder that holds everything we need and the key to our happiness, but I?m sorry, WE know best, actually.?
Anyone else think like that? That is MY personal viewpoint (call it late twenties angst if you must ) But another argument is this- evolution, takes place all the time. We were empowered (by nature?) with brains capable of thought processes and we turned them into reality. Therefore we SHOULD control the planet it is us against nature (in all its wild rage and unpredictability) we can be ordered, controlled and controlling. And WHY NOT? In that argument the fact that we have only used our natural resources to create EVERYTHING. We are not messing with nature we?re in charge of it. In that argument feeding children is about providing nutritional goodness no matter what its source. Lets face it now formula is more refined than the 1950?s, they are still analysing breast milk, another 50 years and who?s to say they won?t have got it cracked. A perfect artificial way that is nutritionally as good- if not better ? than breast milk. Along with every other medical advance that will have been, I have to say I?m a little scared of the future?.

LOL sml!

PS I can post slightly longer messages now, hurrah!!

Just how bad can formula really be?If you read back on Eulalia's posts you understand that formula feeding leads to diabetes and heart disease in later life for your children.Why isn't it banned then if it is so bad?And how many of us feed our children crap food when we feel like it which is also storing up problems for the future for them?According to the research quoted also people who formula feed have sicker babies.Could we have a link if posssible to all this research just out of interest?I would like to put it in perspective and to at least know if I am sending them to an early grave by giving them formula.I do think it rather unhelpful to be giving all these negative effects of formula when it only makes women feel guilty of the choice they made whether it be out of necessity or simply choice.Does anyone know of any support groups for women who feel devastated that they didn't find breastfeeding as easy as they thought and feel guilty for giving formula?I read on here time and again about women who felt like i did for a long time when mine were babies. I certainly never knew all the negative aspects of formula feeding.I have never hurt a fly in my life and have no intention of harming my children.If it is true can we not sue the makers of this formula?Sorry to be so dramatic.

Unturns stone ... I am glad more people are posting ? was beginning to get tired of the sound of my own voice.

Lizzer - I don?t follow your argument regarding human intelligence ? you say ?Therefore we SHOULD control the planet it is us against nature (in all its wild rage and unpredictability) we can be ordered, controlled and controlling.?

Why the moral imperative? Intelligence can mean we are more able to control but that doesn?t necessarily make it right.

I don?t think of us as masters of nature but rather stewards or custodians of it ? nature has been around a lot longer than us. In any case we haven?t controlled all of it by any means, and this I am pleased about ? I like wildness. Not that I am saying you don?t but for me I see us as living within nature, we are part of it rather than removed from it. I think to devise a completely artificial milk would be going backwards. Also WHY would we want to do this? Perhaps we could make pills that contain all nutrients one needs (would save on the cooking and washing up.... but so boring). Also think of the costs of the raw nutrients, factories, cows? (if they are still being used as the base) of setting this up when it is pointless if we carry the resources right within our own bodies.

I don?t think it would be economically justifiable particularly in the future when we have less natural resources ? I see us as returning to nature if anything.

I agree that the govt isn?t really doing enough hence my comments below about mixed messages. I find it odd that there is so much health promotion in general about food and exercise. You?d think if what we eat is regarded as important then the very FIRST food we ever eat would be even more paramount.

I also want to know what happened in Norway.

Re breast pumps ? I was told in hospital that I couldn?t have one because ?it wouldn?t work? ie that I wouldn?t be able to produce any milk. How stupid is that. Just another example of being totally misinformed.

Mears ? totally agree regarding confidence as you can probably tell from my posts (if you have bothered to read them) and also how do you promote b/feeding without being pushy? Interesting to hear about the baby friendly practice.

Janh ? I think the size of the baby does make a difference as they can have a weaker suck. It is not you, as I keep saying it the baby that controls milk production: if baby doesn?t suck strongly your body doesn?t produce enough milk. Pumps can help where baby is not strong enough.

SueDonim - Yes indeed I can?t believe how little informed and supported I was in hospital and we are talking about 20 years later. I also remember in the 70s being told we should eat lots of dairy ? cream, eggs and butter, do you remember the recipes at that time? Heart attack on a plate!

Why is it so hard to understand that some people find bf so difficult and upsetting that they change to formula? On an earlier post, like others, I said that I received very little help in hospital, went home to a baby that just didn't want to suck and then cried and cried because he was hungry. My dh and I decided to try a bottle and ds became a happy baby so we stuck with a bottle. He is very healthy, eats healthy now, only recently started getting colds from starting nursery. I also happen to know 2/3 other babies, solely bf who have had constant health problems and they only eat organic too (I guess that's a whole different thread!!) - or perhaps their breastmilk isn't as top quality as others

Also, can you answer this question: is it possible to bf a 3rd child whilst simultaneously doing 2 different schools runs resulting in 6 x 20mins walks per day with no other person to assist and partner at work all the time? I knew someone with this situation and I just wondered if this 'breast is best' is always possible.

What about the report in yesterday's Independent on Sunday about the levels of dioxins 'among the most dangerous of chemicals' being 85 times higher than the recommended figure, in breast fed babies? Of course, this all comes down to mans sh treatment of the planet blah blah blah but seems to show that breastmilk is not always the 'best' option.

Just thought I'd throw that one in. Tried to look for a link but the IoS site went down.

star, I'm sure Tiktok posted something once about a support group, I think it was on one of the PND threads, may be worth a search.

Having been a partially failed b/feeder first time round and although more successful this time round do not know where I would have been without formula first time round but on the otherhand perhaps would not have failed first time round if formula had not been so easily available and b/feeding was more the norm. IMO seeing mother's b/feed is the best promotion and education re b/feeding. What I am trying to say is along the lines of SueDonim that we do the best with the situation we have at the time and should not feel guilty. I still sometimes feel guilt that I did not do for DS1 what I am able to do for DS2 but would say that formula is a better choice than doorstep milk etc that could be used. Also when things were difficult with the feeding with DS1 all I could think about were the boxes of formula for sale in ASDA/Boots, almost fantisising about buying them and making up a bottle, in the end I did and we mixed-fed.

Tinker, I wouldn't like to think too much about the treatment the cows in our fields who provide the milk for formula endure and the chemicals etc they no doubt take in and pass out through their milk. Perhaps someone more informed would have more info.

Bluestar, with that schedule would it not be difficult to fit in formula feeds also. Afterall b/feeding only needs breast and baby, no time/effort needs to be spent sterlising etc, no bottles need warmed, I would imagine it would be easier to fit in the breastfeeds as they can be done anywhere, even whilst walking if you have one of these fancy slings (not being a fan of slings I do not use one myself). Granted I only have one older child and worried about this myself but I only find it a problem now that DS2 is on solids and he sometimes needs something warmed etc when we are out.