Advertising, marketing, the whole world in trouble etc...(deep!)

[Lizzer]

Hello all, going to break this big message up as I've been having problems posting, so bare with me...

This started on the celebrity b/feeding thread and it was just a comment from me after I was asked to expand on my opinion that formula milk should've only ever been used in circumstances where it was required to help a child survive and not stocked on the shelves at the supermarket. This has spiralled me into depths of the big old money-making and general-public-screwing machine known as advertising and how it has caused a lot of damage to our health, lifestyles and outlooks. I want to have a full on discussion about this and no holds barred. HOWEVER THIS IS NOT A SLAGGING OFF BOTTLE FEEDERS THREAD or BREAST FEEDING IS BEST THREAD and I don't want it to turn into one. Would be interested to hear if anyone agrees/disagrees with me though...

hey Scummymummy no-one needs to read any post ... but point taken perhaps the post was a bit long.

In any case the article was a bit pseudo-scientific ... personally I think it is up to governments to deal with land-fill issues. However just offering it up to show that there are more hidden costs to giving bottles.

Anyway Scummymummy - don't come here just to sit on the fence ...

this debate is dwindling somewhat....

Sorry Tinker forgot to post, lucky you in some ways ... maybe you could have expressed some beforehand...? I leaked a lot more 2nd time round and found I had to wash more clothes but what made b/feed soooo brilliant for me was waking up in the night, shoving boob into dd's mouth and just falling asleep again.

Okay- will jump off fence and say that I think that throughout history people have understood that breast milk is good for babies but equally mums have always tried like buggery to find other ways because for some women it's just not the rosy experience that you (and I, actually) obviously found it to be... I don't think any amount of preaching by the breast is best brigade will change that. Read a diary that my grandma kept during the first few months of my Mum's life recently, in which she extolled the joys (and guilt, because yes, she knew all about the breast is best stuff) of weaning my 2 month old Mum onto something called lactogen- this was 1943. One of my Mum's bestest friendests confessed that she fed her younger child mostly on evaporated milk as she hated breast feeding (mid- seventies). I don't think it's anything to do with advertising- the advertising just speaks to a desire out there already- to stop something that, for many women is not an unalloyed pleasure.

Sorry for being sniffy about the lack of link, Eulalia! I love reading posts both long and short on Mumsnet when they are written by Mumsnetters but sometimes find wading through the research used to back up an argument a bit tedious, I'm afraid. Not really my place to say so though- maybe others find them useful- sorry.

I agree that b/f is bloody hard work and not all that rosy that some people on here seem to think. We are not all the same. B/f can hurt like mad even when you are doing it absolutely RIGHT - as checked by numerous midwives. I also leaked right up until I stopped at 4 months. Dd would take a small suck, then pull off for breath and I would be left with a cascade of milk squirting in all directions - not very good for discretion! I still find bits of milk splat on my wallpaper to this day! Also my other boob would leak like mad whilst she was sucking, it would go right through one breast pad. So in order to feed her I would first have to stuff my bra full of tissues to prevent my clothes from ruining, grab a large cloth to prevent squirts and take a deep breath...... Oh, and then there's mastitus, not a very nice thing at all! Try feeding a baby when your boob feels like it is being clamped, and you have very severe flu-like symptoms. If that doesn't get you calling for the bottle I don't know what will!

If you want to get more women to breast-feed then the NHS need to spend more money on b/f counsellors and midwives who have lots of patience - it takes a whole week to master sometimes, and even then you never truly get the hang of it. Tell women the truth, DON'T say it should never hurt if you are doing it right. Loads of women that I have spoken to all say the same thing - they were paranoid they were doing it wrong because it hurt them, and everything they read said it shouldn't. Why can't they accept that for some women it will hurt, for a couple of months at least. Get more absorbant breast pads (particularly ones that don't creep up over your top when you are out - very embarrassing!). And yes, do more to raise public awareness. Have more pictures of women breastfeeding, so people aren't embarrassed about it. Bang on about the cheapness of it all. And get Gucci do to a range of breastpads, and Clarins could do a nipple cream!

Lizzer - I wonder if I will get blown out now I've written a long post?! Does Tech have something against you? Maybe it's a 'he' and he doesn't like discussions on breastfeeding???

Well fortunately Eulalia, within 2 days of her going onto bottles she slept through the night. Coincidence or not, who cares!

custardo - agree with your points. Without wanting to sound patronising, think peer pressure to have the right stuff is stronger for younger mums. I think I strive to be anti-fashion - never buy label clothes, get stuff from charity shops and tell people.

Have to also say that going on to bottle feeding had absolutely nothing to do with advertising, just wanted my body back.

Well - dare I say this for fear of being publicly flagellated ??? I DID NOT WANT TO BREASTFEED !!!!! So I didn't !!!

I don't lack confidence, information, intelligence or anything else - I just never ever wanted to do it and so I didn't !!

Come on then - bring it on girls - slate me to hell and back !

Ooo, what a terrible mother you are, sexless. I expect your kids are thick as pigshit and very unhealthy, aren't they?

Ummmmmmm....... No !!! 'Fraid not !!!

Very intelligent and very very healthy, also beautiful and loves me to death !!! We could not be more bonded !!!

But how can this be when I DID NOT BREASTFEED ????

It can't be!! You're a liar!!!!!!!!

You're right of course ! Everyone says Breast is Best so I must be lying !

Maybe I did breastfeed ? But maybe I didn't and maybe formula is actually quite good ?????

I wonder ????

Do agree that it does seem to be younger mums who are conned into buying expensive gear for their babies - have you noticed how the second-hand ads are always full of '3 in 1 pushchairs' for sale - all hardly ever used!

I was chatting to a younger friend recently & offered to pass on some of my DS's clothes & also mentioned a very good second hand kids clothes & toys shop we have locally - I could tell by her look of horror that she would never dress her child in anything that wasn't brand new! My Ds has second hand EVERYTHING - cot, pushchair, clothes, toys, books etc etc - unless someone gives him a present!

You see, that's why you are sexless - you didn't breastfeed!

Orrrrrrr........did I not breastfeed because I am sexless ? That is the question !!

I agree Lindy - the younger, and particularly poorer mums seem to go for all the flash new stuff.
I am neither young nor poor but all our kids' stuff is second hand apart from a lovely wooden high chair I bought new which has turned out to be impossible to keep clean and has been replaced by the cheap IKEA one!

I don't know.. IME lots of older richer mums are suckers for expensive flash stuff too, albeit possibly slightly different stuff. I'm thinking mclaren vogue or 3 wheelers, avent bottles, baby gap, hippyish stripey clothes like Sasti or Susumama, leather bootees of the daisy roots sort (in fact- how's that for a new definition of class: leather bootees = middle class, tiny nike trainers = working class... Horrible stereotyping, I know...), sheep skins, woolly strawberry hats, wooden toys, etc etc etc.

Sexless - as SueDonim said below as regards health benefits of b/feeding there is always someone who fits into the ?'Grandad who lived to 127 and he smoked 90 fags a day' sort of thing? Good it worked out OK for you.

Even so bottle fed babies as a whole tend to suffer more illness. Research shows that and I also speak personally as my mum only fed me (and my twin) for a few weeks. I suffered a lot of ear infections as a child and am left with some hearing damage. B/feeding can prevent ear infections (or at least their severity).

It depends on ones viewpoint of what one would regard as ?normal? childhood illnesses.

No probs ScummyMummy.

No-one mentioned b/feeding being enjoyable - does it have to be enjoyable for us to do it... ?after all being pregnant isn't enjoyable for all but we still put up with it. A lot of childcare isn't enjoyable but we do it... point taken but sorry this is a bit spurious.

Snap on the ear infections, Eulalia- had grommits, adenoids out etc but hearing isn't great even now. But I was breast fed...
I think enjoyment IS a real issue and not spurious- past the first few months I really think that the health benefits to the baby of breast feeding are almost negated if the mother is feeling stress and anguish and pain because of it. After all, part of the supposed plusses of breast feeding is the cuddles and closeness- if that closeness can be better achieved with bottle feeding because the mother feels better in herself I think that would be a strong reason to desist forthwith. I definitely would have given up sooner had I not enjoyed it and I think that would have been a valid decision. Yes, my babies' needs are important and I want the best for them but my needs and comfort are important too and meeting them is a pre-requisite for being an adequate mother, ime.

During the antenatal classes brreastfeeding was pushed very heavily. Bottle feeding was not mentioned. The midwife asked who was planning on breastfeeding. Everyone except me put their hand up. I was then taken aside and asked why I wasn't going to try. I couldn't verbalise my fears in a class full of people so just said because I don't like the idea of it. This was partly true, the thought of having a baby at my breast filled me with horror, but then again, I wasn't at all maternal and in some ways the thought of a baby full stop petrified me. The attitude of the midwives made me feel very pig headed though, how dare they make me feel like such a leper. I became determined to bottlefeed.

Meanwhile my mum kept on saying how bottlefeeding would be the best and how much more convenient it would be etc.

As the birth approached I began to doubt my decision. I truly didn't know what to do. I couldn't discuss this with my midwife as I never seemed to see the same person twice due to them being short staffed. I began to think about mixed feeding as I was convinced that I wouldn't cope with having to do all the feeds myself, especially at night. My husband was also very eager to help.

On the day I gave birth I still hadn't made up my mind. When I was handed my baby and asked how I wanted to feed her I said I think I would like to try breastfeeding but maybe give her a bottle at night so that my husband can help. I also needed to go back to work.

The midwife told me that this was not possible, that she would refuse the breast if given a bottle at all so I said ok I'll bottlefeed. My husband gave her the first feed.

About 6 weeks later when my maternal feelings had developed I really began to regret my decision. Everywhere I went all I could see was breast is best and it made me feel so guilty. I hadn't even tried. I wondered whether I had missed out.

I developed PND but there were also other factors not just breastfeeding guilt, however it didn't help.

Wow, what a long posting. I think that what I am trying to say is that if I had been given more impartial advice or had someone listen to what was best for ME rather than what they had been told to say to everyone then maybe, just maybe things would have been different.

Breastfeeding support needs to begin during pregnancy, often by the time a woman gives birth it is too late. However it shouldn't be pushed down your throat as that has the opposite effect on many people.

Well I expect that you have all fallen asleep by now so I'll stop waffling

Please ignore the posting below as only half of it posted.

In my opinion more ought to be done to address women's fears during pregnancy.

No-one in my family breastfed, when I was 10 weeks pregnant my mil bought me a steriliser and numerous bottles. Despite this I planned to breastfeed. However I began to have nightmares about it, I would wake up in the night worrying about it. I confessed my doubts to my husband and said I thought I would bottle feed. He was pleased and we went out and bought some formula ready.

During the antenatal classes brreastfeeding was pushed very heavily. Bottle feeding was not mentioned. The midwife asked who was planning on breastfeeding. Everyone except me put their hand up. I was then taken aside and asked why I wasn't going to try. I couldn't verbalise my fears in a class full of people so just said because I don't like the idea of it. This was partly true, the thought of having a baby at my breast filled me with horror, but then again, I wasn't at all maternal and in some ways the thought of a baby full stop petrified me. The attitude of the midwives made me feel very pig headed though, how dare they make me feel like such a leper. I became determined to bottlefeed.

Meanwhile my mum kept on saying how bottlefeeding would be the best and how much more convenient it would be etc.

As the birth approached I began to doubt my decision. I truly didn't know what to do. I couldn't discuss this with my midwife as I never seemed to see the same person twice due to them being short staffed. I began to think about mixed feeding as I was convinced that I wouldn't cope with having to do all the feeds myself, especially at night. My husband was also very eager to help.

On the day I gave birth I still hadn't made up my mind. When I was handed my baby and asked how I wanted to feed her I said I think I would like to try breastfeeding but maybe give her a bottle at night so that my husband can help. I also needed to go back to work.

The midwife told me that this was not possible, that she would refuse the breast if given a bottle at all so I said ok I'll bottlefeed. My husband gave her the first feed.

About 6 weeks later when my maternal feelings had developed I really began to regret my decision. Everywhere I went all I could see was breast is best and it made me feel so guilty. I hadn't even tried. I wondered whether I had missed out.

I developed PND but there were also other factors not just breastfeeding guilt, however it didn't help.

Wow, what a long posting. I think that what I am trying to say is that if I had been given more impartial advice or had someone listen to what was best for ME rather than what they had been told to say to everyone then maybe, just maybe things would have been different.

Breastfeeding support needs to begin during pregnancy, often by the time a woman gives birth it is too late. However it shouldn't be pushed down your throat as that has the opposite effect on many people.

Well I expect that you have all fallen asleep by now so I'll stop waffling

I have to say on the breast vs bottle debate that I do think it's important for mothers to be happy too, agree with scummy there. And if it hurts and is awful and you want your body back, as Tinker said, why ever not? I don't think women should be made to feel guilty whichever they do: they should be adequately supported in their choice.

To get back to the original points made by Lizzer (I think they were the original points anyway), I disagree that formula should only be available "in circumstances where it's required for a child to survive and not stocked on the shelves at the supermarket" Not all women can b/f and not all women want to! I also disagree with your categorisations Eulalia (oo err, I'm dangerous too, then).

Yes, I agree, Lizzer, maybe formula should not have been mass marketed in the way it was in the 50s etc. So is advertising immoral? Yes, in a way it is, since you cannot sell something to someone without creating a product need through persuading people that they are dissatisfied. (stating the obvious, sorry) Therefore advertising is about creating dissatisfaction and need for x product where perhaps no doubt or such feeling previously existed. The cosmetic industry is particularly guilty of this I think. The pharmaceutical industry still actively sell to the medical profession to persuade them to prescribe x drug over y drug. So we are still being given advice by the medical profession which may partly be influenced by advertising and marketing. And I'm not happy with that either.

Interesting question about whether the competition between formula and b/f would have arisen had formula not been so aggressively marketed in the first place. Maybe not. But you're right Lizzer, women are made to feel guilty if they bottlefeed and it's not on IMO. I'm not sure whether that's as a direct result of formula being advertised though, creating competition where one had to be seen as better than the other, or whether it's because the breast is best campaign has been so successful. This is also marketing, but of a non commerical product, i.e breastmilk. Hmm, came to this thread late but interesting questions.

WWW, in reply to your statement "Interesting question about whether the competition between formula and b/f would have arisen had formula not been so aggressively marketed in the first place." - I believe the reason for Norway's high bf rates is because advertising of formula has never been permitted and their bfing rates didn't fall to the low levels of the UK in the 50's.

According to a Norwegian friend, you can only buy formula at the chemists and ffing mums get lots of sympathy because they are assumed to have 'something wrong' with them making them unable to bf!! She was astounded to move to Scotland and see so many mums ffing.

Personally, having had my first baby and failed to bf in the dim, dark days of the 1970's I am happy to see all the breast is best information that's available today, but I think support is definitely the key to this issue. We've lost the 'folk-lore' knowledge of how to bf and I suspect the bf/ff debate will rage until we have a generation that has grown up as regarding bfing as the norm, as in Norway. But will that ever happen in the UK??

Last night I watched a programme about the agressive marketing in Cambodia of cigarettes and many of the issues were in parallel with the ff/bf debate. The tobacco companies said they were just offering people a choice but OTOH the smokers said they'd been lured into a decision which was very hard to reverse. Also all the environmental issues, the health issues and so on were similar. Advertising is definitely a useful technique for tobacco so I don't see why formula should be any different.

Sorry, a rambling post, well done if you got this far!

Contradict me if I am wrong, but I've always thought breast pumps could surely be far better designed. I had no luck with the manual sort. The small range availalbe gave me little choice, too. The electronic one I tried to use in the maternity ward without success looked as old as the ark.

Now, surely someone could come up with a better breast pump design? As far as I know the design hasn't changed in years. Perhaps Dyson, the suction experts, could get on the case, or the makers of the anyway up cup.

From reading mumsnet, it seems there's lots of us out there who couldn't express, so turned to mixed feeding or gave up breast feeding altogether. If a new more effective breast pump came on the market, think how it would support the b/f cause and help give women more choice.

Think how many types of mobile phones you can buy, and how their design has so quickly evolved. If all that effort had been put into breast pumps.....

As I've said before I'm well aware that for mother and baby 'breast is best' and yes, I agree that lots more should be done to

1. promote breastfeeding, and
2. support mothers who do breastfeed but at the end of the day I think we have also to support and understand mothers who, for whatever reason, choose not to breastfeed or stop early. Yes, Eulalia, I appreciate what you're saying about bottle-feeding not being environmentally friendly but compared to the many other 'un-green' things we all do, such as using cars unneccessarily, it probably pales into insignificance. I also think it's unhelpful to imply that bottlefeed = poorer health and that if a bottlefed baby is healthy then it's a matter of luck. As I've said earlier I bottlefed both my dds and they are among the healthiest children I know. I know many other bottlefed children who are healthy too. Btw I bottlefed, despite my mother who breastfed all 4 of her children trying to persuade me not to, simply because that's what I wanted to do. It was my decision, I wasn't influenced by advertising, I simply rightly or wrongly didn't fancy breastfeeding. When I had my ds several years later, I decided to breastfeed him and although in some ways it was easier than bottlefeeding I found it extremely painful and ended up getting mastitis and being quite ill. The unfortunate thing is that I felt much more guilty and unhappy after trying and failing to breastfeed than never trying at all and I think may have been because attitudes have changed a bit by then and breastfeeding was promoted so much more, to the extent that bottlefeeding was seen as the sign of an inadequate or poor mother.

SueDonim ? that is interesting that I guessed in my post earlier how things would be here if formula wasn?t so readily available (ie people would assume problems with baby/mum) ... and here you say it is the way it is in Norway. Interestingly I also read that toy advertising is banned in Norway (they seem like an enlightened country in many ways).

WWW ? sorry perhaps ?dangerous? was a bit strong... but I do have to disagree with your comment - ?Not all women can b/f and not all women want to!? Biologically it is actually very rare to not be able to breastfeed. As I said if 95 odd percent of women in Norway can do it then so can we ? they don?t have different breasts to us... Sorry but it?s misrepresentations like that, that create this breastfeeding myth that some women have superior/inferior/different bodies to others... and it is this that leads to feelings of guilt...as I said earlier it is nearly always the BABY?s fault if you have problems breastfeeding, the sooner that is realised then women can stop feeling guilty.

If you don?t WANT to do it then fair enough.

JulieF ? thanks for your story and for being so open and honest. Your story is probably quite typical and just goes to show how insensitive the medical profession can be. The same thing happened to a friend of mine who couldn?t stand the though of b/feeding and didn?t b/feed her first at all but went onto partially feed her second. This is what annoys me ? all this moral pressure about doing it but no support of showing HOW to do it. I felt very scared too with my first and wished I had prepared myself beforehand. I feel so strongly that I am going to an antenatal class next week with my baby to show the pregnant mums how to b/feed and answer questions.

ScummyMummy - As for enjoyment ? my point was that we put up with things for the sake of our babies, pregnancy being one example (no-one has yet created an artificial womb) and for some women perhaps they don?t feel that bottle-feeding is a viable alternative. As far as health benefits (to the baby) are concerned sorry but it makes no difference to the baby whether you enjoy it or not! Biologically it doesn?t make much sense for your milk to be less nutritious just because you don?t happen to like breastfeeding. We may not enjoy sex but we can still get pregnant. I think there is so much propaganda around about the fact that we SHOULD enjoy it that people get worried if they don?t ... sometimes it is a chore just like changing nappies/burping etc... yet we still carry out these chores without question.

If one feels that they are happier bottlefeeding then so be it. However again some women want to breastfeed no matter what and I know there are plenty of women on this board who have done it through gritted teeth at times ? it doesn?t make breastfeeding ?wrong? they are just unlucky just the same way some of us have terrible pregnancies... colicky babies, PMT and so on.... I do agree that this may affect the decision for how long to breastfeed although ironically just at the point when some women feel they can?t stand it any longer it gets easier but by then it may be too late. Women need to know that IT CAN GET BETTER! If someone had told me that then I wouldn?t have felt so dreadful during those early weeks.

Also even if you don't like the sensation of breastfeeding it will still benefit you from the point of view of breast cancer, ovarian and endometrial cancer and osteoporosis

There are lots of things we don't necessarily enjoy that are good for us - exercise, healthy food.... life's a bitch ...

Sorry Lizzer hope the thread returns to its intended purpose...