Advertising, marketing, the whole world in trouble etc...(deep!)

[Lizzer]

Hello all, going to break this big message up as I've been having problems posting, so bare with me...

This started on the celebrity b/feeding thread and it was just a comment from me after I was asked to expand on my opinion that formula milk should've only ever been used in circumstances where it was required to help a child survive and not stocked on the shelves at the supermarket. This has spiralled me into depths of the big old money-making and general-public-screwing machine known as advertising and how it has caused a lot of damage to our health, lifestyles and outlooks. I want to have a full on discussion about this and no holds barred. HOWEVER THIS IS NOT A SLAGGING OFF BOTTLE FEEDERS THREAD or BREAST FEEDING IS BEST THREAD and I don't want it to turn into one. Would be interested to hear if anyone agrees/disagrees with me though...

IKWYM bells2, I met a fab male Aussie midwife at the Whittington, his approach just felt completely different

bells2 - do you get them to deliver? It's a wonderful service and if you pull the harrased mother routine when they get to your home thwy will even unpack for you!

Actually have the first delivery booked this weekend prufrock. Have previously used Sainsburys but am fed up so hoping for better things.

Grrrr India Knight (I was in work sis, had to restrain myself). She was probably too comely to breastfeed.

I went to visit a friend & her new baby in the Whittington very recently - no visiting until 2pm, which would be all very well if the midwives did a damn thing to help anyone. My friend had a side room (lucky!) and had no idea how to feed, how to change a nappy (or what way they went round) etc. I helped her a bit, changed a very dirty nappy, reassured her the baby was really feeding and swallowing and all I got for it was some bossy cow telling me to leave. It was the only interaction either of us had with any medical staff. I just think while this sort of thing goes on, no wonder women give up on the idea of breastfeeding and go straight onto bottles.

Have only vriefly read this thread, so will probably get in deeper later - just noticed the bitanout informed choice for all women, regardless of culture..
IME, the VAST majority of women from an ethnic minority breast feed. Many will start bottle feeding in the hospital, and continue to do so for three days until their 'milk comes in', when they will then switch to breast feeding. The fact they commence bottle feeding in hospital has little to do with being in hospital, or seeing what others do, or being ill informed - it's what they've been brought up to believe. Some cultures do not believe colostrum is good for the baby, so withhold it unitil the milk supply is evident - in some third world countries, babies are fed only water in the first few days of life. Now obviously midwives don't advocate this, but it's very hard to break through those cultural beliefs - on the reverse, this pattern seems to work well for many, many women, so who are we to interfere?.....the help and support these women get with breast feeding from their extended family is often remarkable - far better than a midwife could offer!
Anyway, the profession still strives to make women informed of their options, regardless of culture

V interesting thread Lizzer. This seems the appropriate place for what has been making its way round my mostly empty brain for some time now. As regards those on low incomes and formula vouchers I have always privately thought that before they are given the vouchers they should have to try breastfeeding and I would imagine that for some they still would not be able to do it whether physically or mentally, if this is the case then they can have their formula vouchers. I think for some who have been brought up with the image that bottlefeeding is the only option for them may not realise how much they may enjoy breastfeeding and how easy it could be. BTW I am the child of a mother who bottlefed (although she did try b/f but struggled with it) and have had perhaps more than my fair share of b/f problems myself, especially with DS1 although finding things much better with DS2. I do firmly believe that I owe it to my children at least to try. The supermarket vouchers sound like a good idea mind you and probably much easier to implement afterall a b/f mum could do with some nutritious food, a pint of milk just wouldn't do it for me if I were in that situation.

Re the culture thing, at Kings one midwife told me that the only transmission of HIV to babies was seen in ethnic minority women - it's considered so totally normal to breastfeed that a woman who is bottle feeding 'gives away' the fact that they are HIV+ - they can't bear that so b/f and pass on HIV. That's extraordinary isn't it? But bears out what Leese was saying.

I agree that advertising has a very strong part to play - but only to those who are gullible enough to believe in advertising, which, unfortunately, does seem to be the less well educated (middle class snob that I am).

Where I live, very rural area, it is absolutely the done thing to breast feed, no one questions it, no problem doing it publicly, I actually chose to give my DS the occasional bottle of formula, purely for my own convenience in getting a break (hated expressing), I b/f for 8 months, my best friend has just given up as her DS reached 18 months, another friend carried on until her child went to school - no one cared either way.

It is the same with weaning, I am amazed that even here on Mumnset people get worked up about what to give their child & seem to succomb to the 'organic baby food' advertisers - just how difficult is it to puree a carrot ?? I wouldn't eat processed supermarket food, so why should I give it to my child? Even if it is Sainsbury's Blue Parrot - but sadly, people continue buying this stuff, convinced they are doing the right thing for their child.

Sorry about the rambling,must be the (non organic!) wine!!!!!

PS - I have just realised that this message comes over far too strong & I certainly don't want to alienate anyone who had difficulty in breast feeding - I actually did find it very hard at first & was not allowed out of hospital for 7 days as my DS did not gain wait until he was given some formula, which is one of the main reasons I continued giving one or two bottles of formula a day.

Apologies again.

At the risk of being shot down in flames, can I ask why it really matters so much whether one breastfeeds or not. All right, I appreciate that 'breast is best' and has health benefits for both mother and baby but at the end of the day, surely we should respect each others choices and accept that bottle-fed babies can be perfectly happy and healthy. Both my dds were bottle-fed from birth and have always been extremely healthy and bright. I did choose to breastfeed ds and he also is healthy and bright.
Lizzer, I have to disagree that it's the promotion of formula milk that makes bottle-feeding mothers feel guilty, rather I think it's people, whether midwives, health visitors or other mothers, who try to impose their beliefs on them that do this. Yes, of course everything possible should be done to make mothers realise the benefits of breast-feeding but at the end of the day the choice is theirs and they should be supported, by health professionals and others whatever they choose to do. After all, as has been said before, parenting's hard enough...
Sorry Demented but I think your idea of 'forcing' mothers claiming income support to 'try' breastfeeding before they can get vouchers sounds a bit patronising and 'police-statish' (excuse the made-up word).
A final thought about encouraging mothers, espcially younger and lower-income group women, maybe if there was more positive press regarding breast-feeding celebrity mums such as Posh and Madonna (not sure whether they did or not) then it would be seen as more acceptable and even 'trendy'.

I know there are massive holes in the idea that is why I have not made any mention of it before. Before I say this I am on the wine tonight too. I just feel we have babies, we have boobs, we produce milk that is ideal in every way for the babies we produce and feel that we should give it a go.

In support of Lizzer I do have a friend who was brought up as one of five children to a single mum living in a council flat in your typical run down council estate who bottlefed each one of her children. My friend's older sister bottlefed her premature babies and my friend said to me that had it not been for myself b/feeding and her MIL having b/fed and being enthusiastic about b/feeding she would have automatically bottlefed her baby. My friend is very happy b/feeding. I just feel that somehow or other we have to change things for those who are like my friend who if not introduced to breastfeeding would have automatically bottlefed and not known what they were missing out on. Perhaps forcing them to try b/feeding is wrong but when breast milk is free and there are so many other things that tax payers' money could be spent on it than formula milk (although of course a good substitute and I have used it myself for DS1 and was given it myself and seem to have suffered not too many ill effects) which can in turn cause health problems that have to be paid for through the NHS.

Anyway alcohol induced rant now over and I hope I won't regret this in the morning, can't seem to resist these controversial threads!!

So how do you all feel about men breastfeeding? Yes, there was a website mentioned a while back now (along with the orgasms whilst giving birth one) that claimed some men can breastfeed. I always wondered why they had nipples.....

I too dont see why women dont at least try bf. I have a family member (dh side) who put both her children straight on the bottle. I know she wanted to try bf her second but Im sure her dh talked her out of it as he likes to feed the baby too and is a bit a control freak.

I agree that the more people that bf will lead to an increase. Nobody had bfed in my hubbys family until I came along and it took them a while to come to terms with it. However, my dh cousin then bf and I think still is well over a year old. Would she have bf if I hadnt, I dont know, I like to think she looked at me and thought she would give it a go.

I dont think the benefits for the mother are pushed enough and the fact even if you feed your baby for a few weeks the benefits are there and who knows how many would carry on if they just gave it a go. I do think some people take the easy way out. But I am also aware that people use bottle feeding for all kinds of reasons, having to go back to work one of them, but why not bf until you do go back?

The midwife that was on duty when I had my dd was fantastic with the new mums who, as far as I could see, where all breastfeeding, in fact I think all the women on the ward at that time were bf. I dont know if they all still are but at least their babies had the first important milk and the chance to give it a go and see that, although at times it can be difficult, with a little help and patience it can work.

To be honest I dont know why anybody would want to faff around with bottles when everything is there ready on tap. As far as Im concerned, I have breasts for a reason and that is to feed my babies and being as subborn as I am will do that regardless of pain or discomfort.

Its funny, we all love the pictures of little baby animals snuggling into their mums and feeding, so why do people find it so uncomfortable to see a woman happily doing what is natural and feeding her baby.

Oh wouldn't it be so deliciously lovely if men could breastfeed, too? so many problems would melt away.

Why can't the cosmetic surgery folks come up with fully working breast implants for men? And then, with a nod to Lizzer, the advertising industry could reverse the damage they have done re promoting formula, by promoting them instead.

Thinking about Aloha's point that short maternity leave discourages women starting breast feeding. How many bottle feeders have jobs to take up? Do many more bottle feeders work outside the home compared to breast feeders?

Is formula advertised? I've never seen it.

Formula for babies isn't allowed to be advertised but follow-on milks are. The makers promote the f-o milk in the same style tins so you make the connection. That way they build up brand loyalty. Also, hospitals and clincs give out freebies with manufactures names on, or have growth charts, heights charts, pens, writing pads with the name on and there are leaflets that you can send away for info on feeding. It's all subliminal, clever stuff. Look at the IFBAN site for the inside story. It makes fascinating reading.

When shopping yesterday I saw formula for sale from two different manufactures, with no local language (Bahasa Indonesia) instructions on, which is strictly against the WHO code. Where's the 'informed choice' in that?? Violations such as this can be reported to Baby Milk Action in the UK or Ifban reps elsewhere.

Men b/feeding there would be a better option than formula! Must speak to DH later as a couple of weeks ago he printed off a news item about a man whose wife died giving birth to their second child and he b/f the first child who was 18 months as she would not take a bottle. Apparently the man was really producing milk and according to article some men can actually do it. Will post details later and attempt to do the link.

Just to add my little bit ... my mum was a midwife in the 50s and 60s in South Africa ... she says that only the mega rich white people bottle fed ... she said that in those days all new mums had 10 days in hospital and didn't leave until their milk had come through and it was seen that they had the breastfeeding sussed. In her opinion, these days the short stay in hospital and all those first time mums struggling at home on their own is the reason for so many giving up ...
She also says that, as a community midwife, going around all the rural areas, weighing babies etc, women HAD to breast feed ... there was no alternative. My mum would go so far as to say that there is no reason why any woman shouldn't be able to breastfeed ... unless she was too ill. My mum breastfed all her 4 babies and there was not suggestion in SA at that time that bottle feeding was better ... She was even given other people's babies to feed in hospital if the mum was recovering from a c-section ...
I, on the other hand, gave up at 6 weeks (was heartbroken by that) as I was too ill (PND) to continue ... physically, I think that I could have persevered but no one (not even my mum) encouraged me to or indeed explained that my milk supply would come back if I gave it a chance ...
Next time (God willing ...) it will be very different I hope!

I had a friend who bottle fed because she was worried about the effect that breast feeding would have on her boobs. That struck me as extremely shallow. Surely you wouldn't have a baby if you were that concerned about body image. Also claimed that due to a difficult birth her milk wouldn't be any good.....

I know someone who claimed that both her babies "didn't like" the taste of her milk and hence stopped breastfeeding after a week both times.

At antenatal classes breast was pushed with little reference to bottle feeding. A year or so on from ds my HV (who happened to lead the classes) asked me my opinion (as someone who started breast and then changed to bottle fairly quickly) and I said that I felt both options should be discussed 'cos at the end of the day, you can do more harm to your baby if you don't know how to bottle feed. Also after giving birth to ds (1st baby) I waited 5 hours before anyone came to see me/help me with breastfeeding and when someone eventually took an interest, she made the experience painful for me, ignored the fact that it was hurting very much, took no time to show me other positions etc. so the experience didn't get off to a good start. I was also the only one on my ward trying to breastfeed! A mother on her 6th baby got alot of interest as she was ignoring her baby crying and the midwife had to keep waking her up to get her to pick her baby up!

Bells don't you think that it is perhaps trying to justify a decision with reference to the baby to feel better about it. Sorry I haven't put that very well. My friend said this in response to another childless friend having asked if she had been given "any of that breastfeeding crap". I was somewhat offended at this point (since they both knew and had seen me breastfeed) but didn't want to lay into the mother of a 10 day old baby so suggested that IMO it would have been the mother who would have suffered rather than the baby, like when pregnant the baby gets the best of the nourishment. Not very scientific but the best I could manage at the time.