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Advertising, marketing, the whole world in trouble etc...(deep!)

212 replies

Lizzer · 13/11/2002 10:35

Hello all, going to break this big message up as I've been having problems posting, so bare with me...

This started on the celebrity b/feeding thread and it was just a comment from me after I was asked to expand on my opinion that formula milk should've only ever been used in circumstances where it was required to help a child survive and not stocked on the shelves at the supermarket. This has spiralled me into depths of the big old money-making and general-public-screwing machine known as advertising and how it has caused a lot of damage to our health, lifestyles and outlooks. I want to have a full on discussion about this and no holds barred. HOWEVER THIS IS NOT A SLAGGING OFF BOTTLE FEEDERS THREAD or BREAST FEEDING IS BEST THREAD and I don't want it to turn into one. Would be interested to hear if anyone agrees/disagrees with me though...

OP posts:
forest · 14/11/2002 11:27

Like SuedDonim I think a lot of the advertising is subliminal. It really got me p*ed off when I received the bounty pack - I am all for something free but what got me was the way all the information about bringing up your child was printed by pampers or sma. Does this not implant their name in your head so you search out these products? Is this not advertising?
I believe the baby thing is a huge money spinner -even the alternatives ie green/organic baby is still a massive money spinner. Whatever you do there seems to be another group saying no don't do it that way but if you spend money on my products you will be doing the best for your child. There never seems to be a middle ground.
Someone I have met is doing research into consumerism (sp?) and childhood - she is applying for funding at the moment. Hopefully she will be able to get the money to carry this out as she says it hasn't been looked at before. Could be interesting reading.
Do people here see bf as normal, the reason we have boobs? I thought it was lovely last night on that Instinct programme with Prof. Winston, and the mother was bf her newborn. It bought a tear to my eye as it looked so beautiful.

Bozza · 14/11/2002 12:01

As normal as cuddling a baby Forest....

Demented · 14/11/2002 14:45

Here he is here . What a man!

Tissy · 14/11/2002 14:49

Very strange! Maybe I should show the article to dh- I'd love a full night's sleep!

viksy · 14/11/2002 15:12

I feel very pleased with myself this week as ds is 4mths and Im still bfing. I couldnt believe the amount of people who told me to get him on a bottle asap 'so he would sleep the night'. Ds only has bmilk and has slept through the night for the past 2mths. I did hit a low spot at 6wks but Im so pleased I perservered. And even my mum says how proud she is of me!! Sorry just feeling chuffed at myself and wanted to share.

aloha · 14/11/2002 15:14

Congratulations. And what a star of a baby!

Tortington · 14/11/2002 19:08

......... some one said consumerism oooh oooh some one said capitalism... oooooh ooooooh someone said middle class....i HAVE to get into this one!

i think as with most things its about education - backed up by money! which is the key point! someone has already pointed out that milk tokens you either get 7 pints of milk or formula - formula costs a lot more than 7 pints of milk, in fact in poor areas there is a black market goes on in this stuff - you know if you wean your baby early, use cows milk, get them off formula asap then sell it at a knock down prices - so why then not breast feed you ask - well thats where the education would come in wouldnt it? but give parents the formula equivalent if they breast feed and are on benefits that would encourage some i am sure - it now gets political, and talks on governments agendas, and superficial ideals etc.... but ssseeeeeeeeeeeeeeee, i didnt go all insane then did i!?!lol

prufrock · 14/11/2002 19:22

Wondered where you'd been custardo. I thought my florals and pearls coment would have provoked some reaction.
Leee - tahnks for the enlightening on the ethnic minorities, just out of interest what is the justification for believing that baby should not get colostrum, and doesn't it make it more difficult to establish a supply if yo don't start straight away?

Clarinet60 · 15/11/2002 11:31

I know someone who breast fed for a fortnight, then turned to fomula ' because she wanted to get out and about', then put her 8 week old baby on COWS MILK straight from the milkman because it was cheaper (he was then sick everywhere they went, but she still carried on). She is also, believe it or not, an NNEB.

A friend is doing research into why more women don't b/feed. I'll let you know when her publications emerge, but at present, the principle reason seems to be lack of practical help in hospital. I agree with Ghosty's mum - we are turfed out (or discharge ourselves) of hospital far too soon to get anything established, then spend the first few days at home running round entertaining visitors.

Going back to the cost of breast v bottle - last night, DS2 slept through and I wasn't prepared. My boobs leaked all over the shop, duvet is soaked, and won't fit in the washing machine ........ when he stops feeding, I'm having new duvets, mattress, the lot.

Eulalia · 15/11/2002 11:48

Yes OK Lizzer some are influenced by marketing, perhaps in a deep level like you suggest and also agree with SueDonim that it is subliminal. However surely marketing formula for use only in the circumstances of illness would make women feel even more guilty if they went on to bottle feed. For me the attack on formula has to be a two-pronged attack - yes make formula more low-key but also promote breastfeeding. If Nestle or similar spent say 5p on each tin of formula towards breastfeeding support then the world would be a better place.

I think there are 3 types of women who don't breastfeed:

  1. The ones who don't even consider it - whose families bottle-fed and that is just the 'thing' to do and/or they have a poor body image or self confidence

  2. The ones who 'try' it for a few days and give up and say "it didn't work"(these are the most dangerous ones in my opinion as they spread a lot of myths about b/feeding)

  3. The ones who really try hard and have a lot of difficulties and eventually with reluctance go onto formula. These are the ones who feel the most guilt.

Groups 1 and 2 just need to be better educated. 3 needs a lot more support as they may have had a small baby / difficult birth / mastitis etc.

Lets face it if 95%(?) of Swedes can do it then so can anyone (they've got the same breasts as us!)

So .... what is causing the huge 60% (stat for around 6 weeks) of UK women to bottle-feed if only say 15% of the total no of new mothers are experiencing difficulties.... a whole raft of reasons, often seemly muddled and incoherent... misadvice/misinformation/no support/formula seen as ¡¥easy¡¦ and somewhere along the line yes it must stem from marketing pressure... this would make an interesting study but who would fund it?

By the way Tinker - I don't know how you can say there is very little in the costs of b/f vs formula ¡V not only is there the milk itself, there are the bottles, teats, steriliser ...

Anyway if we say approx 15% experience difficulties I would guess that about 2/3 of that are solveable in hospital in the early days, this leaves about 5% or may be even less with true problems who may need to bottle-feed or perhaps mix feed - this would seem to reflect the stats for Sweden.

Lizzer - on second thoughts I've changed my mind - if formula was only given to sick/difficult babies then people would see it as just that - they wouldn¡¦t criticise the mother, they would sympathise. At the end of the day breastfeeding failure is not the mothers fault anyway - it is the baby's. One's body can only respond to what the baby does.

And I also agree with others comments about the need for longer maternity leave.

You are definitely onto something here Lizzer .... Vote Lizzer for next PM!
As some may have read elsewhere I totally breastfed my dd for 6 months - she cost me NOTHING to feed. All the HVs expressed surprise - WHY?? This is the wrong attitude - it should be totally normal that one can b/feed a baby this long without supplementary foods.

Tinker · 15/11/2002 12:02

Eulalia - bottle and teats cost b all, you don't HAVE to get Avent you know. Was given a steriliser but used bucket of water with sterilising tablets - again b all cost. Washing three changes of clothes every day and quilt covers and towels for sleeping on, on other hand, was a PITA. Jeeze, no wonder bottle feeders are afraid to speak up on here!

Lizzer · 15/11/2002 13:16

OH Noooooooo!!!!! I have just written the largest reply. Have lost it ALL! WHY can I not post large messages anymore? Anyone any idea??? Soooooo annoyed...it took me ages. Have to hoover now have no time to write it again, I should have copied it to notepad but totally forgot. Sorry, its v lame of me. I'll try again tomorrow, grrrrrr.......
Thank you all so much for all your messages, really, really interesting - I had so many good comments, now lost.

Just quickly Eulalia - thankyou I'm honoured! I was thinking of a career change anyway!

OP posts:
Lizzer · 15/11/2002 13:17

Tinker -I do want more formula feeders on here so don't hide away, that's why its on 'other subjects' and not 'b/feeding' as not to put anyone off. I have no experience of it but I do know that had I not have had my mum's support and input and been shown b/feeding in a good light by my family then I would have chosen formula definitely. It fits in with my lifestyle better... I have only recently been doing a bit of mind-sweeping to come to the conclusion that I am not operating on a concious level half the time. I do things that are part of a big deception designed to profit others. I live how someone tells me to live, buy the things someone tells me to buy, wear what I'm told to wear. Feeding babies is also a part of this, as is weaning them, dressing them, educating them, everything. I get scared when I look at how many changes I need to make to stop being led and start leading my own life. But the first step is recognising it, I hope. But the big question is how to do it, and can you truly do it in today's world?

OP posts:
Lizzer · 15/11/2002 13:18

TECH, anyone??? Why can't I post 'longer than these' messages anymore? If its a plot to keep me saying very little it'll never work you know!

sorry must dash. Really really enjoyed reading all your comments, thanks for inspiring me to think

OP posts:
Demented · 15/11/2002 14:11

True Tinker you don't have to buy Avent but maybe this fits in with Lizzer's line of thought that advertisers, baby mags etc are telling us that these are what we want, the bottles we would want to be seen using, the fancy steriliser we would want in our kitchens. I know I wanted one of those Avent sterilisers which was madness as I was planning to b/f. Thankfully I didn't buy it in the end as a kind friend lent me a microwave one which I have hardly used

Rhubarb · 15/11/2002 14:36

My m-i-l put all of her babies onto cows milk at 6 months old. But then she was a dairy farmer and would give them the milk straight from the cow. As far as I can see, this hasn't affected any of her kids adversely, though it might explain why one of her daughters is such a cow - boom boom!

Batters · 15/11/2002 14:40

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Rhubarb · 15/11/2002 15:01

I think it was all those Guinness adverts that finally made me give up b/f. I just couldn't stick to 2 pints, I craved more! Maybe I should sue Guinness?

Joe1 · 15/11/2002 17:43

A lady at toddler group yesterday told me she only bf her dds not her sons, stranger and stranger.

SueDonim · 15/11/2002 18:01

Actually, Rhubarb, your MIL may have been following offical advice! MY ds is 27 and when he was a baby I was told that he should be off bottles and formula (I only b-fed for a couple of weeks - the timed 4 hourly feeds did nothing for my milk supply) by six months and onto cows milk. It had to be boiled and sugar added to it!!

The later healthy/unhealthy aspect is irrelevant, really, as it's just anecdotal evidence, like 'Grandad who lived to 127 and he smoked 90 fags a day' sort of thing, when we know absolutely that smoking is bad for you.

Eulalia · 15/11/2002 19:30

Batters - I meant the ones who only did it without really trying for say 3 days.

I am not saying that people shouldn't bottle feed - it is up to them, only that some who purportedly 'try' then go onto give a load of c* about the reasons why they couldn't do it and hence portray b/feeding as being difficult.

Tinker - but you only leak badly during the first few weeks (at night I used to wear a nursing bra and stuff it with a flannel - surely that isn't very cumbersome to wash?) whereas you have to feed your baby formula for a year.

Sorry you lost your post Lizzer - I sometimes write mine in Word and then cut and paste - hence the strange symbols which may appear from time to time.

Eulalia · 15/11/2002 19:34

I found this which goes on more about the costs of formula feeding - thought it might fuel the discussion a bit...!

So next time you are giving your baby a bottle just think of all those cows farting, but seriously ...

Even the Environmental Benefits

Breastmilk is actually the most ecological food available to humans.
There is less consumption of natural resources and landfill space. The production and packaging of formula uses paper, glass, plastic, and metals, all of which need to be produced and disposed of.

"If every child in America were bottle-fed, almost 86,000 tons of tin would be needed to produce 550 million cans for one year's worth of formula. If every mother in the Great Britain breastfed, 3000 tons of paper (used for formula labels) would be saved in a year. But the formula is not the only problem. Bottles and nipples require plastic, glass, rubber, and silicon; production of these materials can be resource-intensive and often leads to end-products that are not-recyclable. All these products use natural resources, cause pollution in their manufacture and distribution, and create trash in their packaging, promotion, and disposal. "

-From Mother Nature Loves Breastmilk", by Dia Michels
These materials are rarely recycled and the two most common disposal methods, landfill and incineration, both contribute greatly to pollution. Plastic feeding bottles and nipples will take 200 to 450 years to break down and it is impossible to determine the amount of time it takes for glass feeding bottles to break down. Landfill sites are hard to come by in many countries and they can pollute groundwater. Incineration releases pollutants into the air. The fumes from burned plastic can contain dioxin and other toxic substances.

If all U.S. babies were artificially fed, the 550 million formula cans sold each year, stacked end to end would circle the earth one and a half times. In 1987, 4.5 million feeding bottles were sold in Pakistan alone. These feeding bottles stacked end to end would reach the top of Mount Everest. Source: WABA Breastfeeding...WBW 1997- Nature's Way

The industrial processes used to create artificial feeding products for babies use vast quantities of energy and natural resources (fuels) and create air pollution (acid rain and greenhouse gases)
If you consider the global or even national scope, even the water and energy used in homes to prepare formula and the bottles and nipples themselves (washing, boiling, etc) have a tremendous impact.
Most artificial baby milks are made with cows milk, the production of which wastes land and resources and contributes to the pollution of the environment in numerous ways:

? Cows excretion and flatulance produce 100 million tons of methane every year, which equals 20% of the earths total emissions. (Methane is the second most problematic gaseous contribution to the greenhouse effect and global warming.)
? The fertilizers used to grow feed for dairy cows pollute rivers and groundwater.
? The ammonia from cow pastures and slurry tanks cause acid rain.
? The clearing of land for pasture means deforestation, an increase in greenhouse gases, the destruction of animal and plant species and erosion of the soil. For example, each kilogram of baby milk produced in Mexico "costs" 12.5 square meters of rainforest.
Even the production of soy based formulas are detrimental to the environment:
? Soy formulas require just as much natural resources and energy to produce and package.
? In Brazil, forests are cleared and burned to create soy plantations. The soya beans are then used to feed cattle and as the base for soy based formulas.
? The growing of soy beans requires a high input of fertilizers and irrigation
© 1998 Keri Baker and parentingweb.com (except as noted)

Tinker · 15/11/2002 19:35

Eulalia - I didn't, I leaked exactly the same copious amount for 3 months.

ScummyMummy · 15/11/2002 19:52

Eulalia- I would have preferred it if I could have had a choice on whether to read Keri Baker's piece on cow farts... Is it really cheeky to ask if you could do a link next time- it's really not as hard as it seems- info here .

I hate breast/bottle debates, incidently. I don't really care if or how long people breast fed as long as they are happy with their decision. If I were a baby again I'd choose hot chocolate personally.

Tortington · 15/11/2002 20:13

lol scummy
back to the advertising tho , i was a very young mum and i was always envious of the new buggies and the bottles with cartoons on and new baby clothes and equipment as i could rarley afford any. i do remember my HV saying i neednt buy a baby bath or a sterelizer because i could wash baby in the sink and use bucket for a sterelizer - at the time i thouht she was mad. looking back tho - if i had a baby now, i sure wouldnt go buying loads of new things - although i would like a super duper new three wheeled buggy! but am not having a sprog just for the buggy! it is money that makes the difference, give b/f mums who get milk tokens the formula equivalent - to spend on whatever they pleased!

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