Advertising, marketing, the whole world in trouble etc...(deep!)

[Lizzer]

Hello all, going to break this big message up as I've been having problems posting, so bare with me...

This started on the celebrity b/feeding thread and it was just a comment from me after I was asked to expand on my opinion that formula milk should've only ever been used in circumstances where it was required to help a child survive and not stocked on the shelves at the supermarket. This has spiralled me into depths of the big old money-making and general-public-screwing machine known as advertising and how it has caused a lot of damage to our health, lifestyles and outlooks. I want to have a full on discussion about this and no holds barred. HOWEVER THIS IS NOT A SLAGGING OFF BOTTLE FEEDERS THREAD or BREAST FEEDING IS BEST THREAD and I don't want it to turn into one. Would be interested to hear if anyone agrees/disagrees with me though...

I think banning advertising is a bit like censorship - good when applied to kids, not so good applied to adults... but .... and this totally contradicts what I just said, I support a ban on advertising smoking (because it kills you) and on marketing to kids (because they've got no money and are much more impressionable). I also support the ban on advertising formula. I do agree that advertising has contributed to making us more unsatisfied with our lives, and this has led to greater discontent. But it's not just advertising, it's magazines with glossy homes, cars, lives and clothes on beautiful teenage models, and tv shows about the rich and famous etc. We measure ourselves against impossible yardsticks and I'm sure many people judge themselves terrible failures in comparison. However, I love all the mags and TV makeover programmes etc so not sure what conclusions I draw except that I should be getting on with my work in order to earn money to buy more consumer goods...

Surely education also has a part to play - after all don't all of us know that 'Persil' is no better than supermarket own brands etc etc - we can choose whether to buy the advertised products or not. It is much cheaper to make your own baby foods so why buy expensive 'organic' ones? Don't you think a lot of people allow themselves to be conned into believing the advertisements, rather than using their own common sense.

Its a bit like suing (sp?) MacDonalds because it leads to obesity - which is apparently now happening in the US - what happened to individuals making their own choice - blaming advertising makes us sound as if we want to live in a nanny state.

IKWYM Lindy, re: nanny state. But I wholeheartedly agree with the ban on tobacco advertising which is not far away now and I truly hope that will have an impact on everyone's health.

Lizzer - I think you were getting your 'should's' and 'could's' mixed up... will have a think about what you are saying.

SueW - try visiting my house! no central heating, water running down the passageway walls when it rains (we are renovating the house), both kids in 2nd hand clothes and toys... dh and I rarely go out... do we care? Do the children care? No. Happiness is about how you get on with people and your health and you don't need a lot of money to entertain yourself.. we hardly watch TV (however not got to stage of singing round the piano yet!) and are all blissfully unaware of the many products on offer that we purportedly 'need'...

Time to go and put another stick on the fire...

Oh and thanks SueW for the Norway info.

What I really hate about advertising at the moment is not really the product ads - I never seem to see any of those - but the other three sorts of ads that seem to prevail at the mo:

those that incite people to borrow lots of money, aimed particularly at those people who haven't got any or who have bad credit ratings;

those that urge people to sue if an accident or injury wasn't their own fault

those aimed at my DD who has on her Christmas list 'almost all the machines isept (sic) the popcorn' (she means the ice-cream maker, the oven etc.

Lizzer and Catt: there is no Nestle-made formula in the UK, but they are planning a launch next summer.

They are one of the world's leading manufacturers of formula, but the UK market is a very hard one to penetrate because of the traditional dominance of SMA and Cow & Gate. Milupa (owned by the same company who make SMA) is after the 'premium' market, mothers who will pay more because they think it is worth paying for the LCPs in it. Other newer types of formula are 'specialist' ones, such as some of the US hypoallergenic ones, which are prescribable. Hence the big names' forays into specialist and premium formulas (like C&G Omneo Comfort, or SMA's Stay Down) which are an attempt to wrest these niche markets away from the new ones.

Nestle's formula is likely to be a specialist, premium brand.

It will be heavily promoted to health professionals.

Nestle's toddler drinks - withdrawn after adverse publicity last year affected sales (they were loaded with sugar) - were an attempt to trail blaze into the drinks market and soften the market up, so mothers would get into the habit of associating Nestle with drinks for younger children, ready for the launch of their formula, which would probably have shared branding and packaging with the toddler stuff .

Lizzer and Catt: there is no Nestle-made formula in the UK, but they are planning a launch next summer.

They are one of the world's leading manufacturers of formula, but the UK market is a very hard one to penetrate because of the traditional dominance of SMA and Cow & Gate. Milupa (owned by the same company who make SMA) is after the 'premium' market, mothers who will pay more because they think it is worth paying for the LCPs in it. Other newer types of formula are 'specialist' ones, such as some of the US hypoallergenic ones, which are prescribable. Hence the big names' forays into specialist and premium formulas (like C&G Omneo Comfort, or SMA's Stay Down) which are an attempt to wrest these niche markets away from the new ones.

Nestle's formula is likely to be a specialist, premium brand.

It will be heavily promoted to health professionals.

Nestle's toddler drinks - withdrawn after adverse publicity last year affected sales (they were loaded with sugar) - were an attempt to trail blaze into the drinks market and soften the market up, so mothers would get into the habit of associating Nestle with drinks for younger children, ready for the launch of their formula, which would probably have shared branding and packaging with the toddler stuff .

Lindy - but washing powders are better and more effective than they used to be - and it is the big, advertised brands who improve the products and the supermarket own brands who just follow them (which is a lot cheaper and doesn't require the research and development). The big companies argue that if they couldn't advertise the improvements to their products, nobody would know, they wouldn't be bought, so they wouldn't get a return on their investment and so wouldn't bother with improvements. Not sure I am entirely convinced by all this, but you get my drift. I do remember the 70s - washing machines were awful, dripping twin-tubs, soap would take your skin off, and Matey Bubble Bath was advertised as 'cleans the bath as well'!! However, I love buying from the local greengrocer and Xmas shopping at craft fairs to put money into people's pockets, not just those of big corporations. I also won't buy Nestle products any more, and buy fairtrade tea and coffee...

Lindy - but washing powders are better and more effective than they used to be - and it is the big, advertised brands who improve the products and the supermarket own brands who just follow them (which is a lot cheaper and doesn't require the research and development). The big companies argue that if they couldn't advertise the improvements to their products, nobody would know, they wouldn't be bought, so they wouldn't get a return on their investment and so wouldn't bother with improvements. Not sure I am entirely convinced by all this, but you get my drift. I do remember the 70s - washing machines were awful, dripping twin-tubs, soap would take your skin off, and Matey Bubble Bath was advertised as 'cleans the bath as well'!! However, I love buying from the local greengrocer and Xmas shopping at craft fairs to put money into people's pockets, not just those of big corporations. I also won't buy Nestle products any more, and buy fairtrade tea and coffee...

aloha, lol, I'd forgotten that about Matey

So there 'ain't a mark in sight' apart from the excema weals, I presume!

And Toddler Taming recommends a squirt of washing up liquid in the bath to cheer up a grumpy toddler, if you can't afford bubble bath...sorry, that's been my sole contribution to this fascinating debate.

Maybe I have been sucked in by the ads but am I the only person who thinks that the brand name washing powders ARE better. I always buy Ariel or Daz because IME it takes baby puke out of clothes better than other makes. My only complaint is that Ariel and Daz seem to be exactly the same (smell different), the list of ingredients are the same, the tablets look the same and are made by the same company yet Daz is cheaper, I can only assume that they are trying to catch both ends of the market here, presumably having done this by different advertising, and this annoys me, especially when there is no Daz left and I have to pay more for Ariel.

I've been thinking a lot lately about my tv licence, esp as we've been watching quite a bit of the bbc's new channels and dd especially likes cbeebies. At first I thought, why should i be paying for a licence when i can get all the channels on satellite which I also pay monthly for? But then I looked at the alternatives to the bbc channels for kids in particular and i think it's well worth paying for if i can avoid all those dreadful exploitative adverts for endless toys, sweets and general crap for kids. I think it's high time that someone from the tv watchdog organisations or even the government got involved with sorting out the adverts in the breaks for children's tv. Did i dream it, or are there some european countries that ban advertising during kids' programmes? Why can't we have something like that? or at least some responsible advertising, like for healthier food; stuff and that doesn't actually harm our kids and make them unhealthy or paranoid if they feel they're missing out on the latest gadget? The more the advertisers persuade kids and parents that these things are the "norm", the less will be done to stop it. Apathy is our biggest problem. Sorry for rambling - this subject makes me mad.

What about subliminal advertising such as the negative advertising I saw tonight on Richard & Judy.
A special dome shaped suction bra thing is being tested by 5 volunteer women to increase their breast size.
Guess what - all the women had children and had breastfed them causing the terrible shape they have now. Judy reiterated the breastfeeding each time. The message being loudly sent is that breastfeeding destroys your figure. That message will be planted firmly in many women's (and mens) minds.

Bottlefeeding women have terrible breast shape too - it is pregnancy and age that destroys your shape, not your chosen feeding method. I don't understand why they did not have an even number of breast and bottle feeders.

That's awful mears. Really makes me angry.

As for washing powders, I'm confused. Friends have said that the brand name non-bios are the only ones that won't irritate kids skins. Is this baloney? Don't know what to think.

Oh come on it's true,I believe it.I only breastfed a few weeks but my boobs went really soft and saggy after that.

I saw that too Mears and was a bit shocked as I thought noone had been able to establish whether bf caused your boobs to shrink/sag as noone breastfeeds without being pregnant first(okay so it is theoretically possible!) so it may just be pregnancy related.
Most of the women said their problem was caused by the fact that they had breastfed three children to which Judy nodded wisely.....

No, it is pregnancy that makes the changes. Not b/f. Mind you, I've stopped now after a year and mine are fine, as it happens. Not quite what they used to be but pretty good (if I say so myself).

Well, we've all seen Judy's haven't we?

Have to say, friends who didn't breastfeed at all don't seem to complain about the empty soft feeling that you get after breastfeeding. It's taken me til now - 5 years - to think my breasts are back to how they were and that is probably due to being on the pill and putting on some weight. (One of the benefits of being small is that they don't really sag though!)

Tinker - lol

Marina - my mum used to wash us in washing up liquid, and it wasn't fairy either!!!

When I was b/f my hubby was delighted as my boobs grew to double their size! But his delight soon turned to dismay when I enforced a 'no hands' rule, my boobs were soooo sore and the slightest touch would sometimes make them squirt off again (very embarassing in a busy shopping centre). When I eventually stopped I saw to my horror that they actually shrinked!! I am now back to normal, but for a while they looked like the boobs of an 80 year old - no kidding! So yes, another disadvantage of b/f I'm afraid. I just hope the little monsters appreciate it!!

Yes after B/F your boobs feel initially 'empty', but the fatty tissue is replaced eventually. There women had not just stopped feeding. I have B/F 4 children and have fabby boobs even though I say so myself. There is an element of getting used to bigger sized boobs when feeding that they seem smaller once you have stopped.
There was once a good feature in the Daily mail ( yes I know it is the hated paper), but it had pictures of saggy boobs from both breast and bottle feeding mothers who were all getting surgery. The B/F mothers put it down to feeding, the women who bottle fed put it down to pregnancy.
Good to have seen the evidence.

Sorry, off the point again

I've been b/feeding continuously for 3 1/4 years and my boobs are OK. I think any sagginess is probably more due to my age.

Also having babies doesn't make you fat - that seems to be another myth.

Moomin - yes Norway or Sweden ban advertising on TV and also in shop windows. They have lovely old fashioned wooden toys in the window and at Christmas Nativity scenes.