GF: Love her or hate her? the Great Debate. Please leave all weapons at the door and NO stomping off, offended. OK?

[SoupDragon]

OK, to avoid the Great Debate cluttering up other threads where pro-GF mums are asking for help, I've started this one. It may have been done before...

If you read another thread and have nothing helpful but want to share your GF feelings, do it here!

I guess it could get heated here so please don't get offended and storm off in a huff as has happened elsewhere with other contentious issues - just avoid this thread

OK, for what it's worth, I have no problems with GF except for the fact that all babies are different so her rigid routine may not fit in with your baby. You should maybe see her routines as flexible - half an hour or an hour either way isn't going to make much difference is it? And I think that before 6 weeks is way too young to be messing with feeding routines, especially if you're breastfeeding. It can mess up your supply in theose important first weeks and I think this is why breastfeeding counsellors seem to hate her so much.

Right, I'm off to duck beneaththe parapet and let you get on with it!

I meant trivial in comparison to what you've been through. I couple of weeks ago, during my blackest period, people kept trying to cheer me up by telling me I should be grateful for 2 healthy boys, which is true, but didn't make the cr*p I was going through any easier. Now my perspective has shifted and I can't stop thinking about how lucky I am.
But I know what you mean Bobbins, none of our threads are trivial, especially lack of sleep / b/feeding problems. Its just that your experience is like mount Everest and has the power to pull us up sharply.

But keep posting, because talking about Harvey is marvellous for us as well as for you. (I'm making a hash ...)

Maybe we could get Gina to do a book for 30 something men? Along the lines of....

7.30: get out of bed. Take toddler downstairs without waking mummy. Change it's nappy.
7.45: Play with toddler for several hours.
8:00: make toddler breakfast.
8.15: WASH UP
8:30: Feed cats. WASH UP. Put on washing. Get dry washing out of dryer. Fold it up. Put it away.
9.00: Go through all paperwork that's been hanging around for last year. Open bank statements of past three years and file.....

OH GOD. HE'S GOT OUT OF THE SHOWER AND IS STANDING BEHIND ME!

apparently he's a bit low on socks.....
apparently he's being ironic.

Yeah Yeah - that's what mine says when he gets THAT look too !!

I find sarcasm works a treat on my 30 something man - he's at work now, but keeps looking over my shoulder too !!

If you think waking up a baby at 7 that isn't ready to wake is hard going, can you IMAGINE waking a 30 something man who isn't ready to gee up!!!!!!

I meant get up, not gee up. Whatever else he might be, most of us are not married to horses!!!

more's the pity.....

Willow2 - only 15 minutes for them to get the toddler up and into a clean nappy? Oh come on, are you on Fantasy Island??!

Hehehe. DH is in Athens at the moment so I know he's not going to look over my shoulder.

I have read the GF book and Penelope Leach,miriam Stopard and anyone else you care to mention over the 9 years in which I have been a parent,yes I am a childcare book addict(Is there a support group out there!)

But there is a serious point here;because people don't live in extended families any more and have children generally later and many of the purchasors of these books have spent many years in education and tend to believe that there must be answer in a book for every problem these books are selling more and more and some people's confidence in their ability to parent is being sapped by them.Grown adults seem to be incapable of relying on their own judgement despite the fact that it would seem to be the most highly educated who are most dedicated to them especially with the much maligned GF.

For the record my children have all had a fairly rigid routine after the first 6 weeks,partly because that is my personality and partly because it worked for me.

With the first two I just observed them and noticed that after about 6 weeks they were tending to sleep longer at certain times of the day and I just encouraged this so that we ended up by chance on roughly the GF routine.With the third having read GF I decided to give it a try,but the main difficulty I found is that there is very little time in the schedule for other children especially schoolage ones,when does she collect from school,help with homework,shop,collect from parties,go out to play etc,perhaps the answer is that as maternity nurse these things have never been her responsibilty.

Anyway I basicaly slipped into doing things my way and the same happened as in the previous 2 cases.As this natural routine is so similar to GF's I wonder if a lot of them fall into this and all her efforts are just enforcing what is natural anyway,I also found that at times even my confidence as a mother of 3 was sapped and DH had to remind me that all was not lost because the "baby did not become sleepy when placed in his darkened room"what must it be like as a nervous firstimer.

This all makes it sound as if I am anti GF,I'm not but I do truly beluive that you only get the baby years once and they are so special,parenting is not an exam to be passed but the most precious time of your life and believe me it goes so fast. It just concerns me that the joy of it appears to be being taken out for so many young parents.Read all the books,(I have!) and take from them the bits that most help you and your baby.Above all relax and trust your own instincts ,if your baby is a natural rebel he will be that from day one and that's just him!

Have only just skimmed over this thread, which is surprisingly unheated! Haven't read GF and don't want to but WAKING A SLEEPING BABY?! Is she mad? (um, yes, some of you would say she is). It is interesting how the woman manages to get people at each others throats. Remember someone here talking about the pro GF friend who stayed and kept suggesting that they should be bringing up their kids the GF way. She even had the nerve to send her the book although the woman had made it quite clear that she wasn't interested. I had an extremely heated debate about GF with a friend recently and, get this: she hasn't got children and hasn't read the book. She still said that ALL her (5) friends with newborns were following GF and therefore CLLB would have to be the way to go when she has kids. Amazing, neither of us had read the book and she hasn't got children and we still managed to argue about it! Very glad I didn't know about CLLB when I was a new mum because I honestly don't think it would have helped. Me. Fine if it works for you though.

Aren't we all being polite to each other!

I'm a go with the flow kind of mum, I haven't read Gina Ford, but I don't think she's my type - I'm a Miriam Stoppard fan - quote from page 86 (subject: Feeding)"Like many things in child-rearing you should take your lead from your baby. Well it worked for me on my 2 - they both breastfed on demand, slept in my bed for the first few months until they went through the night, and I let them find their own routine. But I guess it takes all sorts to make a world, and you just have to do what works for you and yours.

I only know one couple in real life who are GF fans and to be honest, they are not good adverts for GF. And even they abandoned GF for Tracey Hogg when 2nd baby turned out to never stay awake very long.

I just can't live by routine. It would drive me insane in a very short space of time. DH is about to quit his job and gamble his (our) future on starting a new business up -- and you know what? I'm really excited because we have been in such a rut and now the rhythem of our week and my work days will change and be variable and unpredictable. I hate monotony.

DH's family are huge routine proponents. They eat the exact same meals, at the exact same times, day in, day out. Walk the dogs, feed the dogs, do the shopping, cleaning, cooking -- all at the exact same times, day in, day out. When we go visit my little free spirit starts screaming ARRRRRRrrrrrrggggggghhhhhh!!

Yes, Susanmt. Boring, isn't it.

OK - let's get going!

Will you people who say you haven't read it PLEASE do me a favour and stop being so opinionated about something you know nothing about? It is like me writing a review about a film I have never seen or a book that I haven't read ...

All you lot hear is 'waking a sleeping baby' 'eat breakfast no later than 8am' and 'leave the baby to cry' ... of course, it that is what you associate Gina Ford with you would think she is totally mad BUT it is NOT like that ...

PLEASE READ IT and get your facts straight ...
I have tried a couple of times to explain about how it works but have abandoned posting as I just can not do it justice ...

BUT in a nutshell, GF explains that good day time sleep and enough feeds during the day ENCOURAGES good sleep during the night ... therefore avoiding an overtired baby who is grumpy and UNCONTENTED.

She clearly states in her book that IF you want to fit in the right amount of feeds during the day and you want your baby in bed by 7pm then you should make sure that your baby is awake by 7am - It made sense to me ... I never had to wake my baby up because he never bloody well slept and the thought of him even sleeping until 7am was just a wonderful dream ...

After introducing the routines to my baby he changed from a screamer to a dream ... he never cried from being overtired as he was in bed before he got that far and he never cried from hunger as he was fed before he was desperate ... you could almost see the relief on his face ...

Someone asked if there is anyone who followed the routines rigidly and YES I DID! My baby's happiness was more important to me than my social life... and ironically once I used GF my social life returned ... I was able to see people confident that my baby was not suddenly going to start screaming, I was able to go out in the evening and leave him with a babysitter confident that he would not wake up ... If I was invited out to someone's house for lunch I would take the travel cot and put him down for his nap there ... BUT he always went to sleep at 12.15 and he NEVER EVER complained.

Someone else asked about GF and toddlers ... well, DS stuck to GF's routines (as described in the book) until 12 months. I kept it up after that and he kept sleeping for 2 and a half hours in the middle of the day until he was 2. Admittedly, our move to NZ has caused problems to his sleep as well as his move to a bed, but now at nearly 3 he no longer sleeps during the day but is always in bed at 7pm and up at 7am - I think he is still following GF ...

I am not sure how my second baby will work with GF as already I can see that my DS will have to be taken to kindergarten during the new baby's sleep time, but I am confident that I will be able to jiggle things around a bit to make it all work ...

Unlike most of you mother earth types out there I had no instincts when my DS was born - I waited for them to turn up but they didn't but if I decide not to use GF when No 2 arrives at least I will have some knowledge of what to do and will be able to cope better ...

Like I said at the beginning of this thread, please read the book and get your facts straight before you start slamming GF - those of you who have read it and hate it, well you are entitled to your opinion and I would never criticise you for having an opinion ...

it's kicking off.....

Temper Temper

I think being polite is best

My 45 year old friend says he can wash up "like a lady", if its any consolation?

But he still has no ROUTINE

Now there I was, helping things along a bit as people thought the debate was boring and no one has come back yet ... hopefully everyone has found more important things to do?

My CLBB is in the loft somewhere where I ditched it after realising there was no way it would work around my elder child's social life. Also, there was phsycally no way I could have followed her "rules" for expressing.

Ghosty - how old was your baby when you introduced the routines?

But how old was ds when you brought Gina's routines into play, Ghosty? I often note that parents introduce Gina Ford's ideas after a while because they're feeling terrible, put all the difficulties in introducing it down to the "bad habits" the baby has got into, and then lurve Gina for evermore. They then introduce Gina from day 1 for the second bubba and find that many of the same behaviours pertain as did with their first baby- I would argue because that's how young babies behave- and that it still takes 4 or 5 months or so for the baby to settle down. (Alternatively everything goes a lot better- maybe because of Gina, maybe because the 2nd baby is easier and maybe also because the Mum is a whole lot more relaxed- the family have lived through the first baby's early months, know what to expect and know it won't last forever.)

I think the early months with a baby can be ruined by people having unrealistic expectations, whether they use Gina or not. But Gina is VERY specific, "Baby should be up and feeding no later than 7am" kind of malarkey, so it's much easier to get in a tizzy if baby doesn't play ball than if you're looking at a vague "love that tiny baby" kind of statement where there are many interpretations possible. I do think some parents go nuts trying to introduce routines from 2 weeks onwards when it really is often easier and (slightly!) more enjoyable for the hormone infested mum and tiny baby to wallow in the post-natal haze for a while. I think it's Libby Purves who said that her babies needed a free and easy floating hippy for the first six months or so and then a routine loving dictator for the next year and a half. I definitely found this to be true for my kids.

Thanks scatterbrain, prufrock and ghosty for answering my question. So it seems you three are saying your GF babies can adapt to other routines and naturally grow out of GF without problems.

I wonder if anyone has done any research with older children comparing those who were GF babies with those who were not? So many GF people here say the impact of these routines on their baby was sudden and impressive. I wonder if this leaves any lasting and good effects?

One reservation I'd have with GF, or indeed any detailed baby routine manual is this: aren't you put off seeing your baby as an individual? if you take the approach is that all babies can fit into a strict routine then the assumption is that all babies are fundamentally the same.

Even when my babies were a few days old I loved picking out their personality differences and preferences. OK, my imagination was hard at work, I know, but this way of thinking helped me bond with my babies. I'm sure I'm not the only mother to do this and so I assume GF mothers do this too. You must then reconcile this with the idea of one and the same routine = contentment I'm just not sure how you get to this point.

I think the big question from everyone who doesn't use/like GF is the one about the 'one-size-fits-all' idea - the way 'all my babies did .....' exactly the same thing. I find that almost impossible to beleive.
I was speaking to the GF friend who won't go out with her ds. SHe is expecting again in the early part of next year (her ds is 15 months but still following the 1 year routine). I was telling her about this thread (luckily she has no access to the internet!!!!!) and we were talking abou the whole issue as she plans to do it again. Her bf failed on the rocks of GF the last time (her poor kid was starving as wasn't fed often enough, the HV and bfc told her this) and her milk supply failed through too infrequent feedings, and so I asked her what she would do this time. Well, turns out she would rather use GF than bf, and plans to bottle feed from day one so that the routines will work.
Now that is something I really don't understand at all!

Nor I, susan. Sounds very extreme, though not what most GF mothers would consider, looking at this thread.

It is extremem. I think my point is that while most mumsnetter GF followers seem quite relaxed abou tit, there are an awful lot of people out there who are nothing like as relaxed and turn into total dictators.