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GF: Love her or hate her? the Great Debate. Please leave all weapons at the door and NO stomping off, offended. OK?

543 replies

SoupDragon · 16/10/2002 16:42

OK, to avoid the Great Debate cluttering up other threads where pro-GF mums are asking for help, I've started this one. It may have been done before...

If you read another thread and have nothing helpful but want to share your GF feelings, do it here!

I guess it could get heated here so please don't get offended and storm off in a huff as has happened elsewhere with other contentious issues - just avoid this thread

OK, for what it's worth, I have no problems with GF except for the fact that all babies are different so her rigid routine may not fit in with your baby. You should maybe see her routines as flexible - half an hour or an hour either way isn't going to make much difference is it? And I think that before 6 weeks is way too young to be messing with feeding routines, especially if you're breastfeeding. It can mess up your supply in theose important first weeks and I think this is why breastfeeding counsellors seem to hate her so much.

Right, I'm off to duck beneaththe parapet and let you get on with it!

OP posts:
robinw · 16/10/2002 22:21

message withdrawn

ScummyMummy · 16/10/2002 22:21

Oh MABS. How horrendous. Wheels on the bus is a truly unfab song...

ScummyMummy · 16/10/2002 22:23

Know what you mean, robinw... I think I too react bloody mindedly to most prescriptive advice really.

MABS · 16/10/2002 22:26

very well said Robinw. Yes Scummy I truly HATE Wheels on the Bus, but currently Ring - a -Roses comes a close second.

susanmt · 16/10/2002 22:52

Ok I'm going to be serious again (having had no wine tonight, what with it being a weeknight!) this will be long, and possibly confusing, but I wanted to tell my Gina story in full for the first time here, as I have allided to little bits of it here and there. It may also help to explain my not very positive attitude to Gina, and my reasons for complaining when my HV was handing out the book to mothers in my area.
GF (or her book) nearly very seriously mucked up my parenting. I have never confessed to this before, as it is so tied up in my depressions and very emotional. I find GF threads obscurely fascinating, but scarey too. But time to confess - I used her routines, for 3 days. They were the worst 3 days of my life. I had a pretty content baby who, at 8 weeks, was waking up twice a night. I was getting fairly tired and rundown and not coping very well - this being as I had undiagnosed PND and was deteriorating fast. In fact I ended up in hospital.
Someone who didn't know about my depression (how could she? I didn't) lent me the book. In my dazed state I read it, and took from it that my 8 week old baby should be sleeping through the night. Of course, I don't think she says that, but I took that from it. So I started the routines, as I was sure that they would be the answer.
My child turned from a happy little girlie into a monster. I was waking her at 7 when she wanted to sleep till 8, trying to make her take a nap after 1.5-2 hours when she didnt need one for 3, desperately panicking about living in a remote area and not being able to buy blackout blinds. Trying to feed her when GF said to, when she wasn't hungry.
Looking back I was stupid. I shoud have thought about adapting the routines, fitting dd's ways round them and making things easy for us. But, hey, by this time I was psychotic (in the true sense of the word) with depression, and still didn't realise. So for 3 days I made everyone's life hell and eventually dh binned the book on day 4 when he came home mid-morning to check on me (he was getting worried) and found me in tears on her bedroom floor cos she wouldn't sleep. He called the doc, got me a home visit, and the following week I was admitted to hospital for ECT, which worked like a dream.
Now I know GF and her book wasn't responsible for my illness, in fact I had been in hospital for depression before and was stupid not to recognise it in advance, but we were so tired that we didn't see it. But the routines did bring my condition to a head, for which I suppose I should thank GF, cos it might have gone on for a bit longer otherwise.
What worries me is that there are other mums out there, perhaps also depressed, who don't have the insight to adapt and change what GF is saying. Who are so tired, or so ill, that they can't think straight and try to do these routines but they don't work, so they feel like a failure. My parenting instincts and confidence (which hadn't been bad, I was a 29 yr old Mum who, like many, had hardly held a baby before dd was born) were shot and it took me months to recover, not to question every little decision, because I was sure there was someone else out there who knew better than me what to do with my daughter and that the reason she wouldn't do what GF said was because I was a bad mother, not that dd was an individual. I have seen friends since obsess about these routines, worrying about late naps and late/early feeds, panicking is baby isn't in bed at 7. etc, unable to go out because of nap times, having children who cant eat with the rest of the family because their mealtimes dont fit in.
Now I am much better (although on doses of antidepressants to prevent a relapse with ds, now 8 months) and dd is 2yrs8months old. She was, after what we refer to in our house as the Great Gina Disaster, raised in a much more realxed manner, allowed to find her own routines, and she slept through the night from 10 weeks (though it took us a while to break her of the 11pm habit, which only started when GF was introduced - she used to wake up then and play, never feed, cos she wasn't hungry!). We ditched any plans for blackouts (after all, my mother, my MIL etc dont have them) and started to feed on demand again. She is now a bright cheery active CONTENT toddler who sleeps from 8pm - 7am with a 1.5 hour nap after lunch (which can be skipped if really needed). She eats well, at roughly the same time, but I can't and will not commit to having tea on the table at 5 every night (or whenever), we're just not that organised, and I also want her to eat with us, our family teatime is important to us. We have an 8 month old ds, who sleeps from 7.30 - 6.30 then comes into bed for a great snuggly feed. he naps in the morning after about 2 and a bit hours, ofter nearer three, for about 1.5 hours, and again in the afternoon for about the same. He also eats well and is a content wee boy.
If Gina works for you, good and great and do it. But if it doesn't, don't keep doing it and putting your family through hell, like I did. I firmly beleive in the importance of routine, but also that babies know what their own routine is and will find it. I want flexible kids who will nap in the buggy or in a friends bedroom, not always in their own cot in their own room with ther own blackouts closed. I have, eventually, the kids I hoped I would have.
So thanks, Gina, for making me so ill I went into hospital. I certainly got help quicker than I would have otherwise. And I hope people now understand why I am not a Gina fan.

Clarinet60 · 16/10/2002 22:55

Scummymummy, he's 5 months. He's just gone up to his cot now. I'm supposed to collate a load of paperwork for work now, but I'm so tired I hardly know what my name is so I'll just stay on mumsnet instead!

Clarinet60 · 16/10/2002 23:03

God Susanmt, how awful! Respect. I really feel for you. Also some good points - we often go out visiting and can't stick to regular tea-times. It is better to have kids who'll nap anywhere. Perhaps I'll leave Gina in the bookcase.

Cadi · 16/10/2002 23:24

Susanmt - I read your GF story with sadness and anger for you - please don' t think you were stupid - GF writes as if there is only way to have a contented baby - she's the stupid one in my book We're all so vulnerable when we've got babies but especially when there are additional factors like PND.

I've had the book pushed on me on a number of occasions - you know how it goes "you must read it , my babie is so contented" sub text "not like yours" I did weaken and buy it ... thankfully I'd recently chucked bldy Fly Lady because she told me when to get dressed etc. so it didn't take me long to recognise the GF school of thought!!

Ouch what a combination Fly Lady and GF argghhhhhhhh.

Glad to hear things are good for you now

Bobbins · 16/10/2002 23:33

Scummy...stop rubbing my Ribena

trogette · 17/10/2002 02:06

wondering what 'advice' robin was given by 'breastfeeding experts' that made it sound like hard work? Being a trainee 'expert' myself you see IMO (and I've done both) it's a darn sight easier and cleaner than bottlefeeding, especially if one doesn't need to express milk (though if one does the benefits to the baby are definitely worth it) I don't remember 'advice' just information and support.

Oh, and breastfeeding counsellors' opinion of GF? Those who've had to deal with large numbers of babies suffering because of the imposed routines advised in the book wouldn't give her the time of day. The others? Well, the jury may be still out, but I think you can tell which way it's swinging. All IMO of course, I cannot speak for all counsellors ;-)

trogette · 17/10/2002 02:07

darn, I mentioned 'benefits of breastfeeding/breastmilk' when I'd promised myself I wasn't going to... scratch that, it's risks of artificial feeding (which no doubt will kick off a whole new thread...)

hmb · 17/10/2002 08:20

I agree that breastfeeding is much easier, and better for both babe and mother, but only if it works well. I was very, very keen to breast feed, had a highly supportive midwife, and HV, went to all the classes, did all the right things, had no problems with latch on, rested, drank loads of water, and loved feeding my kids. But guess what, I never produced enough milk for either of my children. I look at photos of my dh when I was just breastfeeding and she is skeletal.
Breast feeding is best, but there are some of us that can't do it (regardless of what some people will tell you). I part breast fed, and bottle fed for as long as I could 3 months with dd, but we had to use a bottle in the end.

tiktok · 17/10/2002 08:27

Someone asked about bf counsellors' opinions on GF.

I have read the books (all of them, inc the new weaning one) because I get many calls from women who have read it and who are in absolute bits with their bf, and I expect I will get calls soon about weaning.

The bf information is not evidence based, and I really don't think there is any evidence GF has read the literature on bf, on how it works best, and how to ensure women who bf manage to do it.

Of course what she says will work for some people - something always does! It's really not good enough her defenders saying 'you can adapt the routines' or 'just do the bits you can manage'....the book is quite clear that you should follow what she says to the minute.

To take just one point: GF says you must empty the first breast, and you check this by trying to squeeze milk out. Wrong. When bf is going well, they are never totally empty; if you check by squeezing, some women will be there feeding and squeezing all day.

And another (I am spoilt for choice, believe me) - she has no idea how foremilk and hindmilk work, and seems to think you can guage the quality of a bf by looking at the clock.

I once got a call from a mother with a happy, healthy, thriving baby. Someone had lent her GF. She called me, very upset, because her baby was not following the routines, so did this mean her baby wasn't really contented?? Oh dear....

Others call a bfc when their babies are just a few days old, wondering where they can get a breastpump to do this blinkin' expressing she insists everyone does (and it is everyone - there is no room for flexibility in these routines)...they are in a spin, with a baby who wants to feed often (normal, normal, normal) and to be close to his mummy (normal, normal, normal), terrified to get their baby on the schedule. Just this week, I have taken calls from mothers of 3 day olds and 5 day olds.

Of course the ones who are happy about it all don't phone us, so we don't see the whole picture, I know!

The problems with GF and bf happen in the first weeks, in my experience. I expect that with a good milk supply and a thriving baby, you could switch to her routines later on, as long as you are flexible enough to abandon them if they don't fit in with your life.

TVWoman · 17/10/2002 09:08

Having not had much sleep last night (unlike my daughter!) I'm finding this thread hard to follow and it's soooo long.

However, skimming through the previous posts I'm finding that GF followers use it like a security blanket. It's a safety net as it were.

I live miles from any family members, had my first child at 29, suffered PND, had trouble with breastfeeding and spent my first 3 months mostly crying.

dd is now 14mo, a very, very happy, chilled and contented little girl. She eats well, plays well, communicates well, sleeps better than me! and I didn't follow GF. I didn't know who she was until about 6 months ago so didn't have the opportunity.

What I did do was trust a couple of people (strangers I met through a breastfeeding support site) and relax a little. I let dd lead the way for the first 6 months while we established a basic routine.

I let her feed when she wanted to and for as long as she wanted to. If she wanted to sleep, I let her.

Now I find she'll get a little tired around 10ish on a weekend (she's at nursery during the week) which is a couple of hours after getting up. I didn't need GF to tell me I should let her nap if she wanted to - I just let her. She sleeps for about an hour and then gets up ready to play again and face the rest of the day.

I'm not an earth mother - I work full time and hardly see my beloved child - but I do trust my instincts and more importantly her instincts. Her body knows what it wants - I just let her tell me.

princesspea · 17/10/2002 09:35

Gina Ford is not a mother, she is a paid nurse. It is in her interests to keep her charges as quiet and docile as possible. She doesn't have a mother's instincts and mother's love. The fact that she tells 'her' mothers what to do is absolutely appalling - what is their problem just 'obeying' her?! (the ones she works for, I mean) Maybe if she actually had a baby of her own and loved it she might realise everything she's been preaching is a load of damaging rubbish!

Children need to be loved, not made to fit into a routine that's convenient for the parents. They are actually people and not just accessories.

Somebody mentioned on the other board that Jean Liedloff hasn't got children either. Well how about the Sears? They've got loads! They advocate attachment parenting and they're speaking from real experience as loving parents! If you do consider following GF, at least read what they've got to say too, first.

princesspea · 17/10/2002 09:43

hmb - did you speak to a breastfeeding counsellor? I didn't find my mw or hv knew enough to help. I had to try a few counsellors before I found one who could get to the bottom of the problem, too.

I had major problems to begin with, but stuck at it and will now bf long term.

GF has no understanding of how bf works, it doesn't work on routines, it works on demand and supply. It took my supply quite a long time to settle, and it was very hard, but absolutely worth persevering.

tiktok · 17/10/2002 09:56

hmb....sorry to hear about your experience. Reading Gina Ford would not have helped you, though, at least I don't think so.

There's a lot that people can do to increase their milk supply, and not having enough milk can be a real problem, so working at increasing it can be a necessity for some.

This isn't the right thread to go into details, but often, breastfeeding counsellors can help more than midwives and HVs with bf issues.

susanmt · 17/10/2002 10:17

tiktok - you are a NCT counsellor, are you not? I was in Amazon the other day and found that for some reason I had been 'recommended' the contented book of weaning (not sure why - they said it was cos I'd bought 'Toddler Taming' which was at least 2 years ago).
This was being offered as a Special Offer along with the NCT First Foods Book. Didn't think the NCT would be terribly enamoured of this idea, thought you might like to know ......

dot1 · 17/10/2002 10:54

Another GF fan here! I must admit I did use it as a kind of security blanket - first baby and no family or friends with babies living nearby. It felt like we had a knowledgeable (if a little strict!) health visitor living with us! We didn't follow it to the letter, and some of the cutting out of feeds etc. we didn't manage to do at the ages she said to, but ds is now nearly 11 months and a wonderfully happy, contented baby - sleeps from 7pm - 7am, eats well, and has naps in the day at the same time. I like having a structure to my days - I can plan when to do things/go out around his routine. And when we do see friends/other people with babies that stay up until 9pm and don't have regular sleep/eat times - it would drive me mad!

I think if it suits you to use GF, then go for it. If you find it too bossy/restrictive then she's not for you! What's the problem?!

tiktok · 17/10/2002 11:10

Dot, the problem is that following her routines can really mess up your breastfeeding.

I honestly don't mind what parenting 'style' people follow - babies respond to love, care and attention, and you can do this in all sorts of ways. Some parents, and babies, seem to like a routine. No problem!

But trying to breastfeed and follow GF in those early days and weeks means mothers can be misled, and end up not breastfeeding (which is a shame if they had planned to) or not breastfeeding in a way that makes them and their babies enjoy it (which is also a shame!).

The bf support in this country is truly awful. Mothers are told 'just persevere' when they and their babies are totally miserable with bf...when bf is a miserable experience, just persevering makes it even more miserable. You need to fix the bf.....

So I sympathise with people who turn to GF because all they hear is ' you just have to feed all the time, even though the baby never settles and can't get on properly etc etc etc'

Thanks for the note about Amazon, Susan....hmmmm.

susanmt · 17/10/2002 11:26

I think the problem, as I see it, Dot, is that although some people have the native wit not to follow GF to the letter (as the book insists you should) a lot of people, me included, are too tired, or ill, or desperate to do so.
In the situatoin I was in, I was unable to see past the routines to the thought and ideas behind them, and in the end I cracked! A lot of people are like this. I have one friend I now can only see if I go to her house (and I live 23 miles away and have no car, and she does!) because her ds might fall asleep in the car and get his naps messed up! I kid you not! This is only one example! Not everyone is able to be as sensible as mumsnetters seem to be.
If GF is so good, why do you have to adapt her routines? SHe doesn't seem to think you need to!

prufrock · 17/10/2002 12:04

You have to adapt routines because, as lots of non gf Mums are saying, all babies are different. Those that have made a success of GF do seem to realise this.
I do accept the point that people can get very upset if their baby is not "doing it properly" but surely that is the case with every type of childcare guidance, if you don't relax and allow leeway in everything you get too wound up by it. I think it's the tone and attitude of GF that annoys people so much, if you can get over this, the actual ideas behind it do work.

slug · 17/10/2002 12:08

Hmmm....did I read GF? Well yes. Did I follow her routines? To an extent. I read the book before the sluglet was born mainly because one of my sisters gave it to me. I realised that her routines fairly matched my mother's routines with her children. As far as instinct goes, she never read a book on mothering and didn't listen to the prevalant advice of the day(Dr Spock) but still managed to come to the same conclusions as Gina Ford. Now it may be significant that my mother raised 12 children and a routine was absolutly necessary to keep the family working.

I think like so many others, I took her advice as a guide, not as gospel. I have one friend who, after 6 months of crying hell, read GF and turned into a clock watching Nazi. But then again I'm surprised at how many women I know who did the 'earth mother instinct' thing the first time and routines for the second child. Read into that what you like.

Unlike so many of you, I had plenty of experience with babies before the sluglet was born. Maybe that was why I wanted to establish some sort of routine, I've seen the benefits. I can remember vividly when we cracked the morning sleep, the first one we attempted. Oh the absolute bliss of knowing I had half an hour at least for a shower and breakfast. The last sleep we established was the 7pm. We celebrated by opening a bottle of wine and getting royally pi**ed. Re-establishing adult only evening time was the best thing that happened to my marriage.

Mind you, didn't you get really irritated at her digs at 'misguided young maternity nurses'.

tigermoth · 17/10/2002 12:13

What happens when your toddler is too old for Gina Ford routines? If parents and child have got used to a Gina Ford existance for, say, three years, is it a huge shock when you have to wave good bye to the books? How easy is it for toddlers to adapt to different routines eg at pre-school? Is there a danger of toddlers getting so programmed they can't adapt without tears, and parents doubting their own judgement because they have trusted Gina for so long?

OK, Gina fans, don't throttle me, I know I am painting a black picture but really how can you be sure you're not storing up problems for yourself when you stop?

I have no idea at what age Gina goes up to. Do you think she'd be able to set a recalcitrant 8 year old on the right tracks? Are her theories transferrable to older children? Will we ever see the contented little schoolchild book?

tigermoth · 17/10/2002 13:14

gasp! one whole hour and no ones's answered. And here was me thinking this was a hot topic

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