GF: Love her or hate her? the Great Debate. Please leave all weapons at the door and NO stomping off, offended. OK?

[SoupDragon]

OK, to avoid the Great Debate cluttering up other threads where pro-GF mums are asking for help, I've started this one. It may have been done before...

If you read another thread and have nothing helpful but want to share your GF feelings, do it here!

I guess it could get heated here so please don't get offended and storm off in a huff as has happened elsewhere with other contentious issues - just avoid this thread

OK, for what it's worth, I have no problems with GF except for the fact that all babies are different so her rigid routine may not fit in with your baby. You should maybe see her routines as flexible - half an hour or an hour either way isn't going to make much difference is it? And I think that before 6 weeks is way too young to be messing with feeding routines, especially if you're breastfeeding. It can mess up your supply in theose important first weeks and I think this is why breastfeeding counsellors seem to hate her so much.

Right, I'm off to duck beneaththe parapet and let you get on with it!

Oh god I have just realised I must be middle class! I have a nanny, simply because it is the cheapest option for two pre-school children. Also my parents pay her wages because my dh earns next to nothing. Having a nanny sometimes does embarass me as it does seem to put you in a certain 'class' of people, however for me it is the best solution, it works out as £250 a week (I only pay her tax and NI) which if I tried to have 2 in nursery it would be about £300. The local childminder doesn't have space for 2 full-timers, so what am I left with?

I wish I didn't feel that having Lorriane puts me in a certain class, the other nannys employers certainly wouldn't put me in their 'class'. I am seen as way to poor and with much to small a house!!!

Crunchie I might be being a bit thick here but does the £250 cover everything or does it just cover the tax/NI? It seems a lot for tax and NI but quite little for someone working fulltime (I'm assuming she's fulltime?).

Actually thats why I can't afford a nanny for my DS because for my 3 days nursery is only £75 and includes food/drink, activity materials and a heated building. If I had two it would only be £150.

Custardo you have a little choice - ie flexibility over working hours that means you can share the care with your husband. I work proper office hours so DH would never be able to fit around that. Another quick question - do your herbs have to survive for you to be middle-class?

Crunchie I can identify with the nanny mafia - ours always relates with glee when yet another mother bans her nanny from taking her charge to play at our house based solely on our postcode!!!

Actually some mothers are lucky enough to have a choice. Some have posted on here that they have chosen to work, they didn't have to. I guess I have a choice too, I could choose to work and pay all my wages to a childminder to look after my child, but I come much cheaper than they do! Plus I would lose our WFTC which means a lot to us, so I would actually be worse off if I worked than I am now.

There is a class distinction still in this society, and I do raise my eyebrows when I hear the word 'nanny', I think it's a North/South thing too, we call them childminders here whether they come to your home or not. Aren't nannies also required to do some housework too? Or is that just in the States? However on this thread, it is impossible to judge at time whether people are working class, middle class or even upper class (come all you upper classes - speak out!), which is what I love about it. You cannot make a judgement about someone you don't know the name of, or cannot see. So we may find ourselves having a discussion here with people we probably wouldn't be seen dead talking to normally (i.e. women in flowery dresses wearing pearls).

I think I'm pretentious middle class as my dh is a digger driver, but we (try) to grow herbs and veggies in the garden 'cause it's cheaper than buying them, and I have made play-doh with my dd. But then I like to get drunk and drink pints every weekend, which is normally a working class trait is it not? Aw hell, what does it matter, we're all mothers aren't we?

As we now seem to be into labels I will come out as totally middle class & what is probably known as a 'champagne socialist' acutally I am slurping a glass of bubbly as I type (sparkling wine, not champagne!)

As a SAHM by choice, I do acknowledge I am very, very fortunate, however I actually do not have a choice as I could not return to the sort of work I used to do (senior management, company car, blah blah blah) as, living in a very rural area (again, by choice) there are no such opportunites available and to work for the average wage here (£4.20 per hour) & to pay a childminder (£2.50 an hour) does not make economic sense to me. Again, I acknowledge that I am very lucky in that being at home with access to a very decent joint bank account is a very fortunate position to be in.

However .......... I did ask this question a few days ago on this thread about whether people worked for financial reasons or not (where there is a choice) - a few years ago, before having a child, I chose to leave a very well paid job to work part time & pursue my main interests - voluntary work (using the skills I had gained in employment - training, HR etc) again, I do acknowledge that I was fortunate to have a DH to support me. Then, a couple of years later (& still before children) we both chose to leave our employment & travel for a 'gap' year - it was a wonderful opportunity and whilst I acknowledge that many would not be able to have this choice - we ended up the year in incredibly menial jobs but with more 'life experiences' than ever before.

My DH would LOVE to give up work, & is actively planning to be able to do so sooner rather than later - he is a successful 'businessman' !! but would much prefer to be at home with his son (& golfing, fishing etc of course!!).

Now I have completely lost my thread, must be the booze, but I still am genuinely interested in why people work when they don't have to for financial reasons?

Can I just clarify (if anyone is interested in my drunken ramblings) that my question is nothing to do with not working in order to be with children, but why we allow 'the work ethic' to rule our lives, if we have a choice?

I think work's good for your (my?) mental health. I was a bored and gloomy student and a very happy person at work. My job is interesting and creative - it's close to what I fantasised about doing as a child. HOWEVER, even though I work for myself I do have to supply stuff to others and I have a secret fantasy of being a property developer a la Sarah Beeny on property ladder, and if I suddenly got a lot of money, that's what I'd do. Choosing paint colours and deciding where to put windows - bliss! Apparently the nearest we get to total happiness is in 'flow' when you are completely absorbed in what you are doing - like toddler play. I am lucky in that sometimes my job is like that, sometimes it's just very interesting for a nosy person (interviewing people about their personal lives) and sometimes satisfyingly creative. It's also frustrating and irritating sometimes. I scaled down my work and stopped working in an office when I had ds, which is fantastic and I really wish I'd done it before I had him so I could have some more lovely loafing time, but it works for us. So yes, I do need to work, but I'd do it anyway. I think it would be a waste of my 'talents' to do otherwise.

Lindy - Why is Victoria Beckham a working mum - surely she and David are financially secure?

Lindy, I am completely with you on the idea why work if you don't have to. I know I wouldn't got to 'work' if there was no financial need. However, as you seem to do yourself, I think that most people have a need to fill their day in order to prevent mental stagnation, have social interaction and to create an element of necessary stress etc.

It just seems to depend upon how you define 'work'. If I'm getting paid for something when I would rather be doing something else, then that is 'work' to me. If I was doing something through pleasure, regardless of whether I was being paid, I could not see that as 'work'.

I think it helps that I was brought up as a Catholic and hence have not a Protestant Work Ethic bone in my body

Newish to mumsnet so forgive me if all this has been said before (I cant keep up, how do you find time to read all the messages and remember which ones youre interested in?)Its great to read, then when i start to write i cant remember what everyone else was saying. I dont grow herbs often and have pretty awful taps, dh is wkg class (not from UK,postie in eves and trying to run a small business) I am downwardly mobile middle class i think, had OK jobs, better paid than dh, but made redundant 3 yrs ago and have managed to stay at home since then due to judiciuos use of redundancy money and some bits of childminding etc. I wd like to stay longer but the debts are building so will have to find a job v soon. Dh will then do more childcare (we used to share it 50/50ish). I would really like to hang on a bit longer but the money just isnt there. I know q a lot of sahms so i guess i feel a bit jealous of them...Then again lots of other friends work and they're ok. Just waffling really, dont think I've added much but am trying to write a few messages to get myself involved! Now I will become addicted and stay up late every night doing this I suppose. How do you all do it?

Drink loads of wine soyabean (and hello)

I think it's quite odd to think of work as something necessarily bad. I can see lots of fun and challenge and satisfaction in being an actor, artist, dancer, interior decorator, singer, doctor, architect, lawyer, psychologist, chef, teacher, doula... oh, all sorts of things. But they are all work. Personally, I once did window displays for a clothes shop in Covent Garden as a holiday job from University and absolutely loved it. Would have been v peed off if they hadn't paid me though! Work can be fun though it can also be hell. Like life and childcare, I suppose.

That's what I mean, if I was doing a 'hobby' albeit a sophisticated one like saving lives ! I wouldn't consider it 'work'. If I enjoy it, it's not work to me.

Thanks for the feedback, I guess I am very lucky in that I have the opportunity to indulge in the sorts of things I enjoy...... but without needing the financial input. Eg: I enjoy writing (you wouldn't belive it from these postings!) & so produce our Village Newsletter - I know it is pretty poxy compared to Vogue etc but it gives me a lot of pleasure to see my work in print, even though I don't get paid for it; I also enjoy cooking & do a lot for old folk, fund-raising etc.

I still think it is a real shame that many people only feel they get 'recognised' by the paid work that they do.

Victoria Beckham - no constructive comment, but did you see that she is suing a football club for using the descrption 'posh'.

In defence of Victoria (not that I'm a particular fan, just heard something on the radio), she doesn't mind them using it, it's more if they use it on non-football related merchandise, eg cosmetics or clothes - if you saw some shampoo in a shop labelled Shampoo by Posh then you would instantly think it was endorsed by her. I think she just wants a distinction made.

I imagine her lawyers want a distinction made

Aloha - just to add that I think you have made a very good point in that 'work' is good for one's mental health - my DH & I just had this very same discussion over dinner tonight! I would hate for my DS to end up airey/fairy perpetual student type avoiding work ........ I guess I am rather smug in that I believe I worked pretty hard for 20 years before giving up .......& I like to think I now work 'hard' at my voluntary jobs!

Hi Custardo,
agree with you totally on this one. I didn't chose to work full time with 3 kids. I do it to pay for luxuries like food, clothes and a roof over our heads, although to be honest I think I would choose to work part-time even if I didn't have to.
I have absolutely nothing against sahms but my personal pet hate is women who smugly tell me how they have forsaken eating out, holidays abroad etc so that they can be at home with their children when for years I've given up these things but still work full-time.

aloha - thats why I'm so happy as a SAHM - I get into 'flow' doing the toddler play stuff! While ds was asleep today, dd and I painted her table and chair set. I think we were so absorbed we didn't talk for about 15 mins, just painted side by side. Looks like I am a natural toddler! What am I going to do when they grow up a bit?

Rhubarb, Nannies most certainly do not do any housework (beyong looking after the children). The definition of a childminder is someone who looks after children in their own home. This is the reason why they unlike Nannies must be registered.

Lindy, as an older mum you probably worked for 15 - 20 years before scaling back / giving up. I am 37 and having worked for a straight 16 years in the city am certainly now at the stage where I feel that I have done it long enough and am looking to chuck it in. However even 2 -3 years ago, I would never have even entertained the idea. I think that as you do get towards your 40's it's only natural to re-assess what you want out of life. I don't regret my choices at all though.

Perhaps you are right Rhubarb, it's a north/south thing. When my nanny started I wasn't sure what to call her 'This is Lorraine, she looks after the kids' sounds so informal. She prefers to be called their nanny as it gives her real status. To be called a real nanny I think they have to do all their childcare NNEB exams and to come to your home. The £250 a week we pay includes all tax/NI, but we are not Loondon based. Out here nursery's charge about £30 - £35 a day each, which is £300 for 2. I know I pay a pittance in comparison to what she is worth (I keep telling her to leave if she finds someone who will pay her more), but we have a great relationship and I give her loads of flexibility when I can.

Overall it sounds madness to work full time and then to have a nanny which I don't even pay for. But Dh is an actor which makes him earn a pittance and need to be very flexible. Yes I know between jobs he could look after the kids, but you try to get good reliable childcare at short notice for a few weeks here and there. Not possible considering nurserys need signing up for whnyou are pregnant, as do good childminders. So there you go, I am a middle-class mum, who would love to be a SAHM (part-time), but can't.

Actually Lindy I admire you as you actually put your skills to good use and work harder than most people with a job. A bit like my mum, she never did paid work once she was married, but she always, and continues to do voulentary work.

Lindy, I choose to work because being at home with the sluglet drove me mad. I need the intellectual stimulation. Having said that, dh has given up work to be a stay at home daddy because he desparatly wanted to be part of our only child's life.

Before anyone starts shouting at how I must be wealthy enought to afford this, can I point out that I live in London, and work 4 days a week as a college lecturer. We are paid significantly less than schoolteachers, so easy it aint.

It's definitly a mental health issue for us. I was worried that dh was getting depressed, drinking too much and losing interest in life so when he suggested leaving work, it seemed the best way of heading off what seemed like an oncoming crisis. I grew up poor and have an abiding fear of poverty, but I also have the skills to cope. I'd much rather have a happy husband than a suicidal one. Sod the money, we'll survive.

think thats a fantastic attitude slug it really is, its nto often we get the chance to make quality of life decisions, very admirable

Sorry, Lindy, I didn't mean that only women who go out to work are attractive & interesting, just that I personally felt that I had absolutely nothing to say of any interest to anyone...I felt dreary, dull & completely inadequate. I wasn't even comfortable with other mothers because they all seemed to cope much better than I did. I think I probably had a touch of PND to be honest - still do suffer from time to time.
Also, as I'm too shy to go to M&B groups, going back to work meant I had other adults to talk to 3 days a week.

Sorry again if I caused any offence.