GF: Love her or hate her? the Great Debate. Please leave all weapons at the door and NO stomping off, offended. OK?

[SoupDragon]

OK, to avoid the Great Debate cluttering up other threads where pro-GF mums are asking for help, I've started this one. It may have been done before...

If you read another thread and have nothing helpful but want to share your GF feelings, do it here!

I guess it could get heated here so please don't get offended and storm off in a huff as has happened elsewhere with other contentious issues - just avoid this thread

OK, for what it's worth, I have no problems with GF except for the fact that all babies are different so her rigid routine may not fit in with your baby. You should maybe see her routines as flexible - half an hour or an hour either way isn't going to make much difference is it? And I think that before 6 weeks is way too young to be messing with feeding routines, especially if you're breastfeeding. It can mess up your supply in theose important first weeks and I think this is why breastfeeding counsellors seem to hate her so much.

Right, I'm off to duck beneaththe parapet and let you get on with it!

Sorry Tigermoth - I expect people are scared to say anything for fear of being shot down (again !)

From my point of view, dd was a GF baby and at 2 we have followed GF's advice on potty-training but that's about all now - we aren't at all rigid about things like lunchtime naps, if she's not tired she won't have one, and we certainly aren't tied to any routine as such - other than a sensible general routine that I should think most mums have anyway.

So I think probably we have grown out of GF now - which I think would be GF's intention.

I can't imagine why some of you are so down on GF mums like me - I'm not criticising the way you've brought your babies up so why should you criticise me ? It's hardly supportive is it ? I still think she's useful if you're looking for help but obviously she doesn't work for ALL babies or ALL mums.

Live and let live !

Have skimmed through this thread and will no doubt repeat what others have said.

I bought GF before DD was born and thought it sounded great - I am a real routine sort of person. However once she was born I became obsessed by it and was so upset that DD couldn't stay awake for the length of time she 'should', was waking her up when she was clearly still tired - all the ususal stuff. It drove me mad - definitely developed PND due to it!!

I stopped refering to the book and DD has finally got into her own routine (she is now 6 months). I must admit that I do still look at it from time to time to see what I 'should' be doing - just can't leave it alone.

I know many people who have had success with it but many more who gave up due to stress.

Tictok and princesspea,

Thank you for the kind supportive comments.I don't need then now, as dd is almost 6 and ds is 2 and a half!

I did get a lot of support. When dd was born I was in Dundee, and they have a very, very pro breastfeeding unit (to help raise levels of BF that are dreadfully low in theat part of the world). Lots of breastfeeding councellors there at the ring of a buzzer, day or night. I just couldn't make enough milk. It wasn't helped by the fact that both of my chidren could have won a world medal for vomiting!. I'd feed for hours, and then up it would all come! And by then I was running on empty. The irony was that we all enjoyed bf, and I would have liked to have managed it. I don't feel any guilt, but I do get a bit miffed at the 'everyone can bf, you just have to try harder' line

Neither of my 2 were GF babies. I read Toddler Taming and found it very helpful

Ok I'll answer even though DD is only 5 1/2 months.
It wil probably come as a suprise given my passion for GF - but DD no longer follows the routines (Gasp I said it!) She started nursery 8 weeks ago when I came back to work, and GF was just not working then. DD is expected to sleep in a cot at the side of a large open room, with lights and music on and other kids playing. Feeding times are milk at 10.30, Solids at 11.30, Milk at 2.30 and solids gain at 4. Juice at 5.30 then home. Whilst I could have insisted oin them sticking to my routine (after all I am paying them an absolute fortune) it just seemed like too much hassle to explain the whole GF concept to them
So DD adapted. We get up at 7 and feed, she then falls asleep for 40mins anytime between 9.30and 10am, sleeps for 1 1/2 - 2 hours around 12.30, and we get home at 6pm intime for a play, bath, feed and then bed at 7.30. She still sleeps through the night, and is very happy when awake. The nursery staff have also said that she is the easiest baby they have - I know they probably say this to all the Mums but she is very very content.
I'm sure that any GF baby could do this. The whole point of GF is to not encourage bad associations.

On another point, lots of anti GF Mums have spoken about knowing what their baby wants. How do you do this? Do you wait for them to cry for food before feeding? Or put them to sleep when they get grumpy because they are tired? GF encourages parents to anticipate their babies needs, not to wait for them to articulate them. My dd goes for days without crying or getting upset (at least she could in those halcyon days before teething!) My Mum, who we've visited for 4 weekends has only once heard her cry - and that was when dh banged her head on the ceiling

Well I must put my hands up to say I have not read the book, was going to but in the ended decided my time could be put to more valuable use. I have however read one or two articles that GF has written and picked up alot from threads on Mumsnet. I know it would not be for me but have to say that I do believe in routine, just one that suits the baby and family involved.

What gets me is that when someone looks for advice on GF routines and they seem unhappy trying to follow the routines and someone makes comments about putting the book aside and going with the flow for a while very staunch GF followers take it very personally. If someone wants to do GF then fine and I know there are some on Mumsnet who do very well with GF and it really works for them and that's great, Pupuce in particular always seems to have a balanced view.

I do wish someone had told me when DS1 was newborn that he needed to sleep more during the day but we soon got things sorted out and he slept 8pm to 8am with two longish naps during the day for a while. DS2 however is IMO a different personality and we manage daytime naps better this time but he is still up once during the night although he does go down at around 8.30pm to allow DH and I some time in the evening (20 wks now) I personally think I could have done GF with DS1 and would have been convinced it was working as he slept through from about 6 or 8 weeks and would now feel like I was failing with DS2 and this would upset me. All I see is a happy, thriving boy who still needs that feed during the night.

I think with GF it depends what sort of person you are. Some people like GF as they feel the need for routine and order in their lives, and some people feel that routine is not good and babies will find their on way. Also some people have the confidence in themselves to adapt things to suit, where others don't have this.

For me thats the crux of the issue, GF works - for some people, non GF works - for some people. But it all depends on the type of person you are.

When I had DD1 she was prem and in hospital for 14 weeks, when she came home she was on a strict 4 hrly feeding program which I had to keep up, she never cried for food. With her I had set amounts of food, and regemented feeding to increase her size. Therefore when dd2 was born I had no idea how to start so I read GF. For me I learnt masses, the need for sleep in the day (helps sleep at night), learning to go to sleep alone, roughly the number of feeds in a day to expect for BF baby, and the importance of an evening routine. However I didn't follow the book slavishly, but then I don't follow recipes to the letter I am just not that sort of person. Very quickly (within a week) my new dd found her way with a 3hrly feed routine, bed by 7pm and was a happy child. I was also happy as I managed to get 2 kids asleep by 7.15, and had a break before 10pm when I fed the baby again and went to bed.

I suppose what I am saying, like everyone else is 'horses for courses' as I like her ideas, hate the slavish way 'some' people follow her, and hate the way some people are made to feel failures by her school marm manner. I think the information in the book is essentailly good, and helpful, but people need to lighten up over the whole pro-anti GF thing.

Having skimmed through this thread, it would make great reading for someone deciding whether to try GF or someone who's having trouble with it.

The overwhelming thought seems to be that they're fine if you're flexible about it. It also seems that being flexible doesn't spoil the effect that GF is aiming for.

Does anyone here follow the routines absolutely rigidly? Everyone seems to say they adapted them in some way or other.

Susanmt talked about her friend who won't come and visit incase her DD naps in the car at the wrong time. Now, the DD may be a contented baby but should a baby rule the house like that? It would have driven me mad!

Prufrock admits that she found it impossible to integrate GF routines into her DDs nursery life and had to drop them. Her DD adapted well and is still contented. Is a baby who is only contented when following strict routines to the second and has to nap under specific conditions truly contented? They may be content under those specific conditions and timings but what hapensif they are taken out of that? I would say (IMHO) a more contented baby is the one who is adaptable, who can sleep in a bright room with other children playing nearby and who slots neatly into a family routine.

I like Slug's comment that she took GFs words as a guide, not as gospel.

Picking up on Tigermoth's and Prufrock's points, sort of, I think it's a v bad idea to aim for a child who can't sleep unless in total darkness and quiet... Went travelling on a shoestring budget with someone like this and she was a royal pain in the bum! I've always been at pains to NOT to tiptoe quietly about when my kids were asleep and not to worry too much about holes in the curtains etc, even when they were tiny. They sleep through my partner's extremely loud Frank Zappa Cd playing with no problems (wish the same could be said for my neighbours!)

hmb, sympathy on the bf "failure" - you are not the only one on here - I didn't have enough milk either and I think it was ionesmum and Ghosty who also didn't get past the first few weeks, for the same reason.

tiktok and princesspea, some women just physically can't do it and never will, whatever strategies are tried. It's the way they're made. I know the NCT and La Leche League and other bf promoters tend to gloss over the fact, presumably to avoid putting off those who would be able to do it it but struggle at first, but it is a fact, and "failing" at bf is painful enough without always hearing that you could have succeeded if you had tried something else. My babies were skeletal too before I gave up and went onto bottles.

scummy - did you know there's an Ian D bench in Richmond Park where you can sit and enjoy the same view he loved so much - but it's interactive - it's got a headphone socket and if you plug in you listen to his music too apparently.

I am still amazed at the amount of animosity towards GF methods and those of us who wish to follow them - whether rigidly or not. Unless I have missed something over the last couple of years of being a contributor to Mumsnet, there are never such strong feelings about other parenting styles.

For example - I personally would not follow the Shiela Kitzinger style of parenting, I have never been into sharing a bedroom (let alone a bed!) with my DS, etc. but I know that this works very well for many people and I would not dream of criticising those who do this.

I feel sure that the vast majority of us here on Mumsnet have read a number of books on the 'baby' subject and chose to follow whatever suits our lifestyle - as others have said, 'live & let live'.

PS; This constant referral to GF must be good for her book sales!

Yes, I have to agree with you on SK. I am a very cuddley Mum ( in all meanings of the word, I could stand to shed a few pounds), but I have to sleep in my bed and the kids in theirs. I did sleep with them when they were tiny babies. It was the only way that they would sleep. But once they were sleeping in a cot, in a cot they sleep. I can't see how the 'care until you drop' can be good for anyone, parent or child. My children need lots of love and cuddles, but they also need a mother that can function.

Moderation in all things

message withdrawn

I must admit that I took GF's advice so seriously that we had blackout blinds fitted to our bedroom windows as well as DS's - best thing we ever did!

But now we can't sleep when we go to other people's houses - any advice for adults ....... apart from a few extra glasses of wine!!

Prufrock asked how anti GF Mothers know what their babies want? and if it's by waiting for them to cry etc. Quote "GF encourages parents to anticipate their babies needs" but surely that's the point I can anticipate my babies needs without GF telling me to, I simply listen to my babies and watch them, I tune into them and their natural routine ... I did this with my first when I was a teenage mum on my own living in a bedsit - bet GF would have tutted at my child sleeping through the racket in that house, but he adapted to his surroundings and lifestyle same as I adapted to him.

And if GF is so keen on parents anticipating their babies needs why does she tell them to wake up sleeping babies? is this anticipating that they are going to wake up soon??? or is it training them to wake up at GFs set time?

I just don't get it any more than I do Fly Lady and BTW I hate Toddler Taming too!! I've seen that book turn fairly confident parents into feeling as if they are complete failures

Here I am again!
Another thing that gets me, and there are a lot of them of course, is the way that some (and I am not digging at ANY mumsnet GF followers here, but thinking of a couple of people I know) people who follow GF somehow give the impression in subtle and not so subtle ways, that if you dont follow 'her' routines or 'her' way of doing things, then you are somehow letting your baby down. Like 'don't you WANT a contented baby?' There is a lot of slavish adherence to GF as the only way out there, and although several GF folowes here have complained that they feel people are down on them for it, I am afraid that in the real, rather than the cyber world, there are a lot of people out there who have turned GF into god and CLBB is their religion. Some people who even know what I went through over GF have implied that if I had just stuck it out then things would have been OK in the end (echoes of the bf comments here). Well sorry, no! By the time I went into hospital I was suicidal. I never recommend GF to anyone, and I defend my right not to do so!
Sorry, that all got a bit heated
AAArrrrgh why do I still let the woman get under my skin more than 2 years on???

Oh, and I am sure I have mentioned this before, but does anyone else think she looks like Anne Widdecombe? When we saw her photo with an article I though DH was going to burst 'I wouldn't let Anne look after my kids!!!!'

Janh, it would be surprising if nature got things right 100 per cent of the time and all mothers and babies managed to bf exclusively for 6 months...I think the official figure from the WHO is something like 97 per cent.

More than 97 per cent could successfully bf partially, or for most of that time.

In cultures where bf is the norm - and no, I am not talking about the developing world, but Scandinavia, esp Norway, 99 per cent of babies are breastfed (yes, including the premmies and the poorly ones) and the vast majority (way up in the 90s) of these continue exclusively for several months (haven't got the exact figures for timing, sorry).

Far, far more mothers and babies could enjoy more bf with the right information, help and support.

No, it is not possible to turn the clock back, and hearing stuff that suggests something else could have been done must be saddening for mothers who didn't manage it and who longed to....

But the answer to that is not to say nothing and stay silent on the assumption that everything possible was done.

Each year, 600,000 new babies are born, and those mothers who want to bf need good information, and the knowledge that many bad bf experiences are bad because of crappy stuff that shouldn't happen.

You should hear some of the reasons why mothers have been told to stop bf, or the failings on the part of HPs which they have experienced which led to poor bf.

But I do accept that in some cases, a bad experience has gone too far, and a baby may actually need to formula feed.

In any case, there is always more to mothering than feeding

Hello!
After the comments i made on the sleep board I thought i'd better go and read GF rather than pass judgement based on what i have heard the book says. I now have an even lower opinion of GF!! Do you really want some woman not only telling your baby what to do but when you should have your breakfast? If someone walked up to you and told you when to get dressed and to not go out at certain times you'd tell 'em where to go. Just cos it's in a book you believe every word. You don't believe what The Sun says so why should GF be any different. How she can advise on bf i don't know. All bf counsellors (i believe) have bf but GF hasn't so how would she know what to do? I couldn't believe it when i opened the book and saw timetable reminiscent of school! I am in shock you follow this routine! For those who it works for i believe it's just a coincidence! I had a look in the library, whilst bf my son, and the librarians had a look too and couldn't believe what the book was telling mums (at an emotional and vunerable time in their lives) to do. I am completely amazed and disgusted at this book and can't believe anyone could think it was a good idea. Sorry if i offend GF mums, but I am in completely shocked at the cheek of this woman, making all this money from u by imposing a ridiculous routine upon lovely little babies ruining a time where you should be bonding with your cherubs, not clock watching!!

Tracy
xx

PS my non GF 8 week old slept 10.5hrs last night! He is one very contented baby!

I bought the GF book on recommendation from Amazon pundits when I was six months pregnant. All sounded very attractive...sleeping through the night by 8 wks old...when Harvey actually arrived it all went straight out the window. I had a German friend who swore by GF (and still does) ...and I admit at some points I did feel inadequate at my childs sheer unpredictability(as compared to her regimented predictability). But I LOVED it too. He was a greedy guzzler that fed pretty much constantly...and ended up giggling incessantly....I'm not exaggerating!. I only had 10 months with my son, I'm glad that he had an unruly 10 months...that involved baked bean baths and some VERY late nights...just because....

GF just didn't suit me and Harvey. Differnet strokes for different folks 'an all that.

Hi Bobbins. Here we are, worriting about how long they sleep and how much they feed, and there are you. Sorry to bring this up in a different thread, but I think your loss of Harvey has hit me particularly now, seeing this trivial contrast. God bless you.

Droile, thanks for saying what I couldn't put into words.
Thinking of you, Bobbins.

No, no, no Droile...it's not trivial at all...these are the things that make up life's tapestry. I too worried dreadfully when I was preggars about black out blinds and sleeping through the night, but when Harvey arrived I realised routines just ain't me. That's just my persomnality. I don't think it was earth motherish...just a lack of discipline. OK, in retrospect I'm so glad I just went with our unruly flow, but at the time I was jealous of mum's who could predict what time the next feed was due.

Strike that, I wasn't jealous,....more shocked.

We co-slept for the first six months, and Havey seemed to manage to find my boob all by himself during the night. I'm sure Gina would have disapproved of this, but I just admired his determinism.

Lindy,when you stay over at friends take an eye mask ( the kind you get free on some airlines) to wear in bed