GF: Love her or hate her? the Great Debate. Please leave all weapons at the door and NO stomping off, offended. OK?

[SoupDragon]

OK, to avoid the Great Debate cluttering up other threads where pro-GF mums are asking for help, I've started this one. It may have been done before...

If you read another thread and have nothing helpful but want to share your GF feelings, do it here!

I guess it could get heated here so please don't get offended and storm off in a huff as has happened elsewhere with other contentious issues - just avoid this thread

OK, for what it's worth, I have no problems with GF except for the fact that all babies are different so her rigid routine may not fit in with your baby. You should maybe see her routines as flexible - half an hour or an hour either way isn't going to make much difference is it? And I think that before 6 weeks is way too young to be messing with feeding routines, especially if you're breastfeeding. It can mess up your supply in theose important first weeks and I think this is why breastfeeding counsellors seem to hate her so much.

Right, I'm off to duck beneaththe parapet and let you get on with it!

Personally my aim is to give up work all together when my son is around 9 -10 as in my view it is the teen years when children need you most (and of course I'll be too knackered then to carry on working anyway). IME pre-school children are happy so long as they are receiving very good quality childcare and it certainly doesn't have to come from a parent. Am still perplexed by the gender bias of this debate. Forest, why don't you qestion the fact that the vast majority of men have children with absolutely no intention of cutting down their working hours let alone giving up their jobs?.

I am really disappointed to see so many women holding the view that other women should be denied the opportunity to make choices in their lives.

Croppy - I don't think people are on here are questioning our right to make choices, just that some people see the choice to have children as overriding everything else in your life. As you said though, nobody questions a man who does not make his children his entire life.
I actually feel very much like you. At the moment my dd's life is fairly uncomplicated, and anybody can help her finger paint. When she is older is when she will need me more, and I do not intend to work full time then, but will fit my work around school hours. And I feel very strongly that it is important for my dd's that she sees that a woman can have a career, husband and kids, and that I provide her with a good, strong, empowered role model so that she feels free to make tha choices that suit her when she is older

No I am making absolutely no correlation between working mums and unhappy children as I don't for a second believe that to be true. I think the absence of someone to listen to and help children is more the problem and that can be anyone whatever their circumstances. However, I can't clarify this point as I have no answers and it was more of an observation.
I don't question men to stay at home more because I am still thinking in terms of babies and I am passionate about bf - show me a man that can bf. Besides my man did reduce his hours by changing job after dd was born.
I feel women are empowered by birth but are disempowered by living in a patriachal society! Not sure how I will back up that statement - give me time to think about it.
As for my friends being sensible, well..... they would love you for saying that.

I didn't feel empowered by birth. It made me feel even more inadequate than usual...

I'm thick and feckless and so didn't plan my twin boys. I pretty much hate children and, horrified to find myself with 2, I shove them in nursery so I don't have to see them too much. Ok place, though they don't beat them often enough for my liking. Planning on boarding school from 4 years.

It seems to me that the difficulty for many women with being a SAHM is the level of isolation. I have been a SAHM for 6 years, and am just starting to train for a job, which I hope will start when my ds starts school full time. Being a SAHM in the 21 centuary isn't the 'normal' experience that early Homo Sapiens would have had. We are not part of a tribe any more, with all the suppost that gives. Most of us arn't even part of an extended family. IMHO the thing that children need most are happy parents. If they are happy being at home good, if they are happy in part time work , good, and if they are happy with full time work good.

It is this 'natural' line that floors me every time. What is natural about they way we live our lives? Bugger all as far as I can see

scummy, you do make me laff.

Agree with whoever said that even if your baby is planned you can't tell how well, or otherwise, you will be able to cope with being a SAHM. And even if you are OK at home with one, having 2 might do your head in so then you do need something to do away from home.

Mine were all sort-of planned, and I did stay at home, but then I never had a "proper" job to go back to, and I am a lazy cow too so that worked out all round - although my kids might have been better off going to a day nursery/childminder some of the time for some more positive input - who knows. (I did do things with them but am not creative or artistic so it was all a bit limited - playdoh/crayons/glue - not a lot of imagination.)

I have said before on mumsnet that I don't understand why this SAHM vs working mum thing keeps coming up, we all do what we can/have to, why can't we live and let live (please?)

Fair point prufrock. I just have to confess that I have found all this highly depressing. There are SO many fantastically, intelligent and talented women out there in fields as diverse as education, medicine, law, charity work, politics and finance and so on and so on that I find it amazing that people would expect them to just chuck away their hopes, dreams and aspirations simply because they would also like to have a child. I also just can't understand people asking "why bother having a child if you're going to work". My career has been under way for 15 years, I am good at it and it is part of who I am and certainly a key part of the person who my husband fell in love with. It's ludicrous to me to suggest that I should throw it all away right at the pinnacle to be at home with a pre-schooler who is perfectly content as he is. And I do think the value and importance of financial independence is something that is overlooked.

Surely if children of mothers who worked were suffering some sort of damage as a result, we would know by now. And if there is no such damage, then what is the problem???

And forest, if you have a problem with the "patriarchal society" then why would you want to encourage such a society by discouraging mothers from working?

Croppy, Ks - wonderful. Its great to read your statements. KS - your statement about being plain bored was great to read. I'm just coming off anti-depressants having suffered Pnd for the first two years of my dds life. I longed for a baby and read every book under the sun - but not a single one prepared me for the reality. I adore my dd but spent the first two years of her life thinking that I was an awful Mum because secretly I enjoyed being me at work doing a good job. Its taken me ages to realise that by being me at work I am far more fun and loving for her to be with in the evenings/weekend when I devote my time to her and more importantly - I really enjoy it. Croppy I agree wholeheartedly with you too - surely being a mum - be that a working one or one staying at home is hard enough without any additional guilt. I have many friends who are SAHM (more than working ones) but it constantly amazes us the degree to which we fell guilty about our decision to either stay at home or go to work. I because I'm not with my child full time, they because the extra money is not coming in and because they are not role models etc etc. Truth be told as long as our children and we are happy then thats all that should matter. Sorry if I've sounded like I'm on a soap box.

Forest surely your point of view is a bit scewed by the fact that you chose looking after small children as a job at some point so it is presumably something that you implicitly enjoy and find stimulating - whereas the mere thought practically brings me out in a rash!
We all love our various dd/ds to bits but ( as ks said so well) we don't all love the experience of spending all day alone with a small child even when we adore him/her. It is a moot point as to whether is actually a totally selfless act to stay at home with a child even when you are bored and frustrated by it - perhaps it is - but only if you can ABSOLUTELY ensure that you will never take out your irritation on your child and never pass on your resentment in any way shape or form...

so this is still going on - lots of interesting messages as well.

Not much to add right now, though I'm horribly drawn to reading this thread.

Anyway during my nine years of motherhood, I have swung to both extremes on the SAHM, working mother front. When my first son was three I was working six days a week (some of them from home), doing two jobs, sole breadwinner. Lots of pressure. I still saw my son for at least 3 hours a day, and all day when I wasn't working - really treasured those times.

Now my second son is three I'm a total SAHM. All the time in the world. My son happily goes to nursery courtesy of the nursery voucher scheme - very short days - and I can be 'there' for him at any time the drop of a hat.

And you know what, I can see absolutely no difference in either son's overall happiness or rate of development at three years old.

I must admit, ks, for the six months or so I've been a SAHM I've really enjoyed it, but then with both sons at school or nursery for some of the day, I have a break.

I'm a bit of a slacker on the domestic front so I can reach the standards I set myself very easily. If I tried to be a Doris Day type I'd go mad!

This is, as others have said, a fascinating thread. Daren't add to it at the moment though ......
Rhubarb, I'm sorry you're feeling depressed, wish I could help.

Ok, I have a question, and just for the record, it is a genuine question, and not an attack of any kind. For those of you who are working, don't you feel like you are missing out on your children? Mine are 4years and 18months now, and they are growing so fast. I am a full time SAHM, and I am shocked by the rate they are growing. I can't imagine how I would feel if I only saw them for a few hours a day. Do you not think you will regret it in the future? Potentially missing out on first words/steps etc?
I couldn't bear it. I used to know a woman who boasted that her ds woke at 8, was at nursery by 8.30, she collected him at 6, and he was in bed by 6.30.

anais, that is sad, but not normal, I don't think, even for FT working mums.

In any case, the first step and whatnot, although unbelievably exciting at the time, isn't actually that important when you look back 20 years later.

There is an interview with Terry Wogan in Saga magazine - sorry but I am that old! - in which he mentions the loss of their first baby daughter and that he remembers her, as a baby, better than he remembers his surviving children as babies. And that's the point, I think - what you have NOW is the most important thing, and although missing the first step, etc, may be sad looking back, at least you are there for them now and you are, maybe, a more interesting person for a grown-up child to relate to.

Yes I do of course feel sad sometimes at the passing years and worry occassionally that I am missing out. However, this has to be seen within the bigger picture of our happy home life overall which to some extent depends upon being able to nake the choices in life we feel are right for us as a family. In my case, worries about missing out on my child's development would not be as pressing as how bereft I would being at home 24/7 with a small child having sacrificed the job and life I love. I can have both so why not?

The woman you refer to Anais sounds downright bizarre. I have never heard a mother talk about her child in that way - working or not.

And Forest, breastfeeding is not relevant to this debate. Most women have maternity leave of around 6 months after which if they are still b/f they simply carry on mornings and evenings. Alternatively, thousands of women express at work. I did so twice a day until my son was 16 months old. It was no big deal.

Yes, I do absolutely adore being with children I find them so stimulating and fun. So my viewpoint is very skewed. Can't write any more as have to walk dog. Interesting points coming up.

I spent less time with my oldest son aged three than I do with my youngest son aged three, but I put more value on the time I spent with my oldest.

I tried to plan our activities in advance so we could make the most of each hour, I put the chores on hold when it was 'our' time, and talked, read to and played with him like nobodies business.

With my youngest son, I feel far more relaxed about cleaning the kitchen while he watches a video, popping him into the leisure centre creche for an hour while I have a swim, or having a day when the furthest we go is to the local shops.

Incidently even though I am there for my youngest son, he spends a lot of time being ferried to and from my oldest son's after school activities. By virtue of having two of them I have to split my attention all the time.

When I think of the concentrated attention I could lavish on my oldest son when he was an only child, I sometimes worry that my youngest son loses out. If I was in a full time job with long hours with two sons, this would prey on my mind the more, and since I will have to return to full time work, I know I have this problem coming up.

Going back to croppy's aim of being a SAHM when her children are older. I can see that my oldest son does benefit in one way by my being around. He can go to any after school activity he likes - no problem if his swimming class starts at 4.30 pm or cubs begins at 6.00 pm. It would be more difficult, though not impossible, to fit these in if he was didn't have me as his taxi driver.

Janh - glad I'm not the only old fogey Terry Wogan fan on Mumsnet !

OK I'm going to put the cat amongstthe pigeons - so to speak.

There has been various comments on this thread along the lines of 'How can someone plan to have children and then not be there for them' All I want to say is - and please take this with a mega pinch of whatever - Is this actually another male conspiracy theory, bourne out by years of living in a patrical society! We women should give up our careers as soon as a baby beckons, because we really shouldn't have been working in the first place. Remember it wasn't so long ago that as soon as a women got married she was expected to give up her job, and in certain cases married women weren't allowed - teachers etc.

Now I'm not saying I agree with this comment, but sometimes it does seem to me that we are not always that good at being supportive in whatever we choose to do. In the real world as well as Mumsnet. I mean crazy at it sounds, I'm dreading going into work tomorrow as I have to grab my files and come home straight away, my nanny is ill, and I know she'll be off a week (DH can't take time off he's an actor and is working at the mo!). The people I am dreading telling are the other women, not my boss who will tell me I'm stupidto even try to take work to do at home, but I feel I need to be seen to do this, by the others.

Oh well, childcare cr* is never easy, nor is working or staying at home. Our lives are there to juggle!

When men become fathers, I'm going to start making a point of asking them if they will be going back to work.