GF: Love her or hate her? the Great Debate. Please leave all weapons at the door and NO stomping off, offended. OK?

[SoupDragon]

OK, to avoid the Great Debate cluttering up other threads where pro-GF mums are asking for help, I've started this one. It may have been done before...

If you read another thread and have nothing helpful but want to share your GF feelings, do it here!

I guess it could get heated here so please don't get offended and storm off in a huff as has happened elsewhere with other contentious issues - just avoid this thread

OK, for what it's worth, I have no problems with GF except for the fact that all babies are different so her rigid routine may not fit in with your baby. You should maybe see her routines as flexible - half an hour or an hour either way isn't going to make much difference is it? And I think that before 6 weeks is way too young to be messing with feeding routines, especially if you're breastfeeding. It can mess up your supply in theose important first weeks and I think this is why breastfeeding counsellors seem to hate her so much.

Right, I'm off to duck beneaththe parapet and let you get on with it!

What a long thread this is. I couldn't add a message earlier so I thought I'd scroll to the bottom and try. It has taken ages. Does the length of a thread affect your ability to post a new message?
Anyway in the interim I have started a new thread asking if any other parents out there share childcare 50/50?
If this doesn't work nothing lost. If it does, see you on the new thread hopefully

In response to Anais' question - no, I DON'T feel I'm missing out. As I've said before (and others have made a similar point) I DO still see a lot of ds - 4 of his 11 waking hours during the week, plus of course both days at the weekend - and holidays (although I do also sometimes make use of a nanny then too!)

My best friend - a ft mum (GP) of 4 whose example I follow a lot wrt parenting - once gave me some wise advice: "people will say that you might miss out on first steps, words etc, but remember, what matters is the first time YOU see/hear it - that's the first step/word that YOU have witnessed". When I compliment her on her parenting skills, she always claims that she learnt HER skills from the first nanny she had (who lasted for 2 of her 4 kids before moving away, and who is still a good friend).

As it happens, as far as I aware, dh and I DID witness ds' first step (during the Christmas holiday) and his first word (Cat, which he has since forgotten)

Yes, at 2 and 2 months, ds IS growing and developing fast, but no, I don't feel like we are missing out or will regret it later, as we ARE still seeing and participating in his development.

Anais, dh works ft, I work pt, yet it was dh who witnessed ds's first steps, as ds happened to make them just before his bath, when dh was on bath duty. This stuff doesn't just happen during working hours...

Crunchie re dreading telling your female colleagues more than your boss about working from homes: yes I can relate to that.

OK, flexitime, working from home, unforeseen emergencies with childcare etc can put more strain on those holding the fort at the office, so I suppose it's only human nature for some annoyance to surface.

However as a sad rule of thumb I have found childless women, especially those in their mid thirties or older, the most critical and least sympathetic to the needs of working mothers.

My last HR officer(female) used to say to any working mother who queried hours, conditions etc 'we can't show favourtism - you chose to have a baby it's up to you to take the consequences'

Yet if anyone suffered a sports injury, no question about sympathy, flexihours and unlimited time off for physiotherapy etc. No question of living with the consequences of playing your chosen sport.

Tigermoth - I am sure I was probably one of those mid 30s, childless managers who was unsymathetic to working mums - however, you try running a customer orientated department which HAS to be kept open long hours - just how sympathetic can you be when there's only two or three people available, but I don't think I was any less sympathetic to sports injuries etc.!

Anyway, not having to deal with those sorts of hassles anymore makes me glad to be a SAHM.

Emmabee, I don't want to sound over-sensitive but I resent the comment that you have to go out to work to be an 'attractive, reasonably intelligent woman' - why can't you be at home and be attractive & intelligent & make a contribution to society & all the rest of it!

Do working (paid) mums really think that SAHMs just watch day time TV & do play doh all day? I have a hugely varied life now that I am not a slave to office hours and have a large number of hobbies and activities, certainly I think I am much more interesting than when I worked 70 hours ++ a week!!

Totally agree, Lindy. How is being a 100% or just mostly SAHM incompatible with also being educated, intelligent, accomplished??

I wrote a long message last night & promptly deleted it before posting... boohoohoo...

Just gonna say to RHUBARB thanks for piping up, and don't worry about defending me because I'm an old Usenet hound & nothing on Mumsnet is a patch on the original FlameFest. Besides, people seem to get all defensive in response to things I didn't say, so how can I take it personally??

I agree with whoever started to say that all these issues we debate so fervently are trivial in a world full of child abuse, neglect, poverty....

Posting before I delete it again!!

Anais, why don't dads get asked..aren't you missing your child's first steps, go home man!!! I think not.

Besides I always think this is a spurious argument,because babies do not just suddenly say their first word after months of silence, or suddenly stand up and walk from lying position! Its a gradual process, and if you don't happen to be there at the precise moment a recognisable word is formed - big deal. What's a few hours in the grand scheme of life??

Lil - completely agree. Can't even remember my daughter's first steps and does it matter anyway? My mum certainly can't remember most of out landmark moments but then she doesn't know any of her 8 siblings birthdays, ages or middle names either !

Tinker- you think that's bad, my sister once sent a mothers day card to my Mum signed marynickbethdoris as that is what she was called all the time.

I am Mary, my brother is Nick, she's Beth and Doris is the cat!

Nuns-on-a-bike (one of my new non-swear words) but as a SAHM I think it's about time I pulled my finger out. It's just that since having ds my life has become one endless run of meeting up with my other SAHM mates so that our sprogs can play "nicely" with each other and we can have a natter, playing trains, playing farms, playing football, playgroups, children's farms, walks in the park, cups of tea, trips to the bloody supermarket/dry cleaners/doctor, etc et-bloody-cetera. I don't have any time for hobbies, my life is infinitely more boring than it was before I had kids (you've seen one kids farm, you've seen them all) and I hate playing with play-dough (and wouldn't know how to make it if it jumped up and slapped me in the face). The only time I get to try and do something for me, namely some writing, is at about midnight and I am consequently absolutely xxxxxxx knackered. And no, writing isn't a hobby, it's a pathetic attempt to make some dosh. I'd love to learn Spanish, photography, pottery etc etc - but when, I ask you, when??!! WHAT AM I DOING WRONG.

Phew - feeling much better now.

Blimey ... is this still going on? Can't be bothered to read through what I have missed but just wanted to say Willow2 ... I hate playdough too ... and painting ... so there!

i am boiling with anger..... i did not chose to go to work
i did not have a choice to stay at home
the choice wasnt mine
the choice wasnt mine
the choice wasnt mine

i had to work to feed the children, to keep a roof over our head and to buy them something more for their birthday than a teddy from a charity shop which is what i have had to do in the past

the choice wasnt mine

making play doh and watching richard and judy sounds fab to me.... rather that at home with my kids, being able to remember to remid them to do their homework instead of just forgetting because i am too busy thinking of work or i am too tired to think of anything - to find that they come home having had to work through their play times because they didnt do it at home. i would love to take up a hobby - i havent got the time, i wold love to be abole to pick my kids up from school and get invovled with school activities, i would love more than anything to put the cat amongst the pidgeons with the middle class mums who i live with and don a flowery dress and "do afternoon tea" wearing pearls

i love a set of pearls - so i could pawn them for xmas!

i ws in awe when someone asked what does everyone do on here for a living and we had scientists teachers dovtors and nurses . i mean wow i was just in awe of the talent we have on here

lots of the discussions centre around private education and nannies - this is a different world to me it really really is.

so i defy anyone to say we live in a classless society - it is this society that has not given me a choice - does anyone understand what im saying?

the point is where is the choice to watch your childrens first steps to make play doh , to paint with them if by the time you get home they are in bed

i think i'll go off and rant about student bloody loans now

Custardo,
Can I put you straight on something..

'Middle class mums do not don flowery dresses and do tea in pearls'. We struggle with housework and babies and toddlers tantrums, we work as hard as anyone and we'd appreciate it if you didn't lump 'middle class mums' under a ridiculous stereotype of a heading.

"why has..this society not given you a chance"...? you chose to have a baby didn't you? why should society pay for you to be able to stay at home and 'watch richard and judy'???? Not many of us can afford to!

I am painfully aware sometimes that talk of Nannies and so on must be seriously off putting to others here. The only thing I would say though is that like most people, I would be horrified if someone made judgements about others because they say, lived in a council flat or were on benefits or whatever. Likewise I would hope it goes the other way too and "middle class" types aren't judged solely on their trappings/lifestyle too.

OK, we forgot class warfare as a potential topic for this thread...

Custardo, don't think anybody was criticising those who have to go work for financial reasons. Yes, it's great if you have the choice but I think everyone on this thread recognises that a lot of women don't have the choice. Which just emphasises my point re need for high quality affordable childcare

Bells, I know the term nanny sounds ever so extravagent (sp?), but the fact is we use nannies because we haven't got parents nearby who would look after our children. I hate to have to feel embarassed about it.

Who looks after your children when you work Custardo?

You got it Lil. Actually I would never have used a Nanny if I didn't have to be at my desk by 7am, thereby ruling out every other form of childcare.

Wow, this is interesting but I dont know where to find the time to read all the messages! I worked 3 days per week while ds1 and dd were small, until ds3, 3 yrs ago, when I happily took redundancy. I have enjoyed being at home a lot, and do a bit of work, just a few hrs pw. But we cant survive financially much longer so now I have to look for a job. Cant imagine how I will do it and still do all the other stuff that has to be done. Dh is busy, works hard but unfort, doesnt earn a lot. He used to do all the childcare while I was at work but is less available now. I do agree that as children get older it does not get any less easier to leave them My son will start sec schl next yr and I think will be more in need of a parent at home at 4 pm, not less, and probably not just for the first few months.

I find it interesting that everyone has decided that they are middle class and custardo has obviously decided that she is not. I'm not sure if I am or not. I know that I couldn't afford a nanny on my salary but am lucky that I can fit in with nursery hours - just. How do I work out if I am middle-class or not? Certainly don't have flowery dresses or pearls

Bozza if you use a nursery you are using trained nannies!!!

I'm middle class as I'm part of a household who works long hours, pays out lots of tax and is not able to claim any benefits in return!
(not including child benefit and maternity of course).

I suppose on that definition I am too then Lil. But as a child my Mum didn't work, my Dad worked 40 hr week and had a period of unemployment and we had some benefits eg free school meals part of the time so I do still kind of see myself as working class also. But you can't really define working class as in receipt or benefits can you?

Also I realise that the staff at nursery are trained nursery nurses but I could never afford to pay for one to look after DS one-to-one.

firstly bozza - we already did a thread like this ages ago and it was fantastic - i think we decided that the definiton of middle class depended on whether you grew your own herbs and what typr of bath tap you have!

wat i find ever so fantastic on mumsnet is how everyone relates thins to their personal life which is great when we need advice about things so for instance

the discussion was sahm's V's working mums - and some one posted dont you miss seeing your child develop.

the arguments were enless and have atually been resolved with great answers ages ago.

so the samr thing goes for my posting - obviosly the flowery dress and the beads were used as colouring to the way i write - i wouldnt be seen dead with any of you if your wore them especially if they didnt match my shellsuit.

the point was this and only this. i have no choice. many people have no choice in fact i cant say i know of anyone who choses to work. so if we all agree that as working mums we have no choice. is thisargument not redundant.

we all take things to heart so when sahm's comment on how in theior experience they can be there for their child etc... the replies have been harshish from working mums becuase we feel itsa slight on how good we are as a parent.

so the point i introduced was i have no choice.

the same principle applied when i stereotyped middle class mums didn't it! and no i dont mind personnally although other might i dont know - i you want to stereotype the working class.

however i never said whether having a nanny was a good or bad thing i simply said it was a different world to me which it is.

we have no family around us - and so to answer your question - my husband and i look after our three children between us. i work a lot of evenings going to meetings and so i get TOIL which i use to look after the children as does my husband.

and no i am not angry at the people who have posted but rather the assumption of choice which we do not have.

i dont believe society should pay for me to stay at home either i was however making the point that the choice is absent lil.

no i didnt chose to have my first child it was an unplanned pregnancy - yes i planned to have a second and ended up with twins. andi didnt say society had not given me a chance as i believe i have worked really hard putting myself through university with three young children whilt working at the same time and now have a very successful career - i make my own chances i know tat - i said "it is this society that hasn't given me the CHOICE" The choice i was refering to was working or SAH.

for the record you couldnt pay me to stay at home with my kids anyway.

Actually Custardo, I agree wholeheartedly with you in the sense that I don't think its fair for commentators to say they can't understand why women work full time through choice (as opposed to financial necessity)and then list a whole number of reasons why women shouldn't work full time. Whatever your motivations for working are, it is hurtful and in my view unhelpful to suggest that by doing so, you are distancing yourself from your child/ missing out on key developmental stages etc etc. I imagine that for those who do need to work for financial reasons, these sorts of assertions make them feel more depressed than those who simply choose to work.