Midwife has referred us to Social Services

[Nixina]

I'm looking for some information about our future.

DH and I are doing well financially, I've got a very good job, he's self employed. We have a decent home and garden in a good neighbourhood, and are both well educated.

However at booking when I filled out the questionnaire about us the midwife was a bit concerned and had me fill out a more detailed form about our relationship. My score was low, but the items raised about DHs behaviour to me and our pets when he was depressed and suicidal a few years back had her raise me with her safeguarding lead, and now they want to involve social services.

I'm just wondering if anyone can give me some insight into what to expect.

So many replies on here, some very extreme. Op says he has been mentally well for 2 years, maybe that’s true? Maybe he was really unwell when he shook the dog, mental health can make people do things they would never dream of doing when well. The important thing as that he gets support to continue to stay on top of his mental health. Work with social services, do as they ask and if he does show any signs of aggression be prepared to leave, if social services tell you to leave then leave.

I don’t necessarily agree that someone who shook a dog would do the same to a child and I don’t agree that someone that hurts a person would go on to hurt a animal. Only OP really knows what her dh’s mental health is really like and wether this man is a threat to her and her child and if he is a risk then she needs to leave to keep the child safe. The best thing to do is work with social services and prove your dh is no longer a danger.

From personal experience, the behaviour escalated after the birth. He was unbelievably rude to the midwives and doctors when DC was born. First night home (baby wasn't allowed in our room) she cried and he screamed "shut that little b....h up". Please be careful OP.

Lovemusic33 I don’t necessarily agree that someone who shook a dog would do the same to a child

It isn't 'would' it's an indication of equally likely they 'could.'
The connection between behavior towards animals and children is we all know that when their perfectly normal behavior seriously frustrates us, they didn't choose to be in the relationship, and aren't able to remove themselves from danger, so we control ourselves enough when "enraged" by them wanting attention, to not take our anger out on them.

Or are you suggesting that he had the control and choice but saw the
dog as a lower life form that it was ok to take his aggression out on, and he'd place the child higher, so would choose not to?

The best thing to do is work with social services and prove your dh is no longer a danger. Totally agree with working with social services, but she shouldn't be managing life around "we try to keep him calm so we can talk things through", or making it her responsibility to 'prove your dh is no longer a danger.'

This is how women push themselves and get pushed into corners defending and minimizing things they shouldn't be to social workers, and taking on responsibility for regulating others behaviors that actually they can't guarantee to continuously control, and then having put their (child's) neck on the line over it, not be able to admit they were wrong and deceive those monitoring the situation.

I don’t necessarily agree that someone who shook a dog would do the same to a child

It doesn’t matter what you think, the evidence tells us the opposite. Safeguarding takes animal cruelty very seriously because of the link with child abuse.

If OP's partner has been mentally well for 2 years, why are they still having to work to keep him calm? What effect will a crying baby have on that fragile calm? What effect is it having on OP now, and is that why she disclosed to the midwife?

If OP's partner has been mentally well for 2 years, why are they still having to work to keep him calm?

Exactly this.

@Lovemusic33

So many replies on here, some very extreme. Op says he has been mentally well for 2 years, maybe that’s true? Maybe he was really unwell when he shook the dog, mental health can make people do things they would never dream of doing when well. The important thing as that he gets support to continue to stay on top of his mental health. Work with social services, do as they ask and if he does show any signs of aggression be prepared to leave, if social services tell you to leave then leave.

I don’t necessarily agree that someone who shook a dog would do the same to a child and I don’t agree that someone that hurts a person would go on to hurt a animal. Only OP really knows what her dh’s mental health is really like and wether this man is a threat to her and her child and if he is a risk then she needs to leave to keep the child safe. The best thing to do is work with social services and prove your dh is no longer a danger.

What's your experience and qualifications to make such a risk assessment? Or are you just opining on what a violent and aggressive man might or might not do based on personal bias and gut feeling based on nothing at all?

@Sertchgi123

I don’t necessarily agree that someone who shook a dog would do the same to a child

It doesn’t matter what you think, the evidence tells us the opposite. Safeguarding takes animal cruelty very seriously because of the link with child abuse.

There is a link between animal torture and child abuse. But it’s not so strong as to say all those who abuse animals will definitely abuse a child. The evidence is that those who abuse animals are more likely to abuse a child than those who do not abuse animals. We are still talking a low % though as many people will abuse an animal but not a child.

Well of course it won’t be all no one has said it would be. Nevertheless, there is a link and your post attempts to minimise that fact. @PlanDeRaccordement

@Sertchgi123

Well of course it won’t be all no one has said it would be. Nevertheless, there is a link and your post attempts to minimise that fact. *@PlanDeRaccordement*

It doesn’t minimise, it clearly states the actual facts and what the evidence shows.

The bigger issue is how he physically assaulted the OP by grabbing her and holding her down while screaming in her face.
Since he abused the OP, the holding and screaming at the dog is really a moot point as it is a warning sign of abuse towards humans, which has already happened to the OP.

Your poor dog. That could very well be your child. Will you actually be able to do the right thing for your child? You didn't for the dog. A crying baby can make anyone feel slightly mad, someone who has rage issues is like a loaded gun. I'm glad you've been referred to SS. Please listen to the advice and really let it sink in, don't dismiss it immediately.

I know some foster carers who cared for a baby from birth because the dad had a history of DV towards the mother and the mother wouldn’t leave him. Like the Op, the mum thought they were over reacting and it wasn’t that bad and it wasn’t his fault.

Social services wanted to place the baby for adoption but the parents managed to convince the courts that he had changed and they deserved another chance. So baby went home with them .

Next thing the foster carers hear from SS that baby is in intensive care with a serious non accidental head injury and asking if they will take him If he survives . They agree.

After discharge, Baby spends many months with FC as it becomes clear that he now has significant developmental delays and learning difficulties as a result of his head injury. Social workers cannot find anyone to adopt him so ask if the foster carers will keep him on a permanent fostering basis.

Baby’s Dad goes to prison. Baby’s mum still has contact with child at the foster carers but she quits after a while as it makes her feel bad. The child doesn't really understand who she is and won’t call her mummy and she can’t cope with her own feelings of guilt.

This @Nixina is why the MW has made the referral. They want to save a child from a life changing injury or death from being shaken.

And to be blunt they want to save the public purse from the millions of pounds it will take to support that child throughout his life. Foster care costs alone until he is 18 will be quarter of a million. Intensive care is more than £1k a day and he was in for weeks. Add in medical and social services Costs, state benefits and supported accommodation for his whole life.

Now do you see why the MW and SS won’t take your word for it that you are trying to keep him calm and that he’s just being a spoilt toddler?

The minute you give birth it’s not all about you anymore and what you want and how you can dress up his violence as depression. It’s about the safety of your tiny baby.

I’m sorry to be so blunt - I know you must be very shocked to read these posts. But you need to understand how very serious this is.

The dog isn't a moot point, it is an indication of how the DH behaves under stress to smaller non verbal living beings that he frustrated with.
He picks them up and shakes them.
This is a fairly frequent response to babies and it is very dangerous.

Becoming aggressive towards other living beings is not a standard response to being depressed. The aggression suggests something else in addition to depression is at play. This hopefully has been assessed and managed by a health professional.

It doesn’t minimise, it clearly states the actual facts and what the evidence shows.

It does minimise, especially as the facts are, he shook the dog and screamed at it. This is enough to open the case to social services.

@Sertchgi123

It doesn’t minimise, it clearly states the actual facts and what the evidence shows.

It does minimise, especially as the facts are, he shook the dog and screamed at it. This is enough to open the case to social services.

Actually the OP was not sure whether he shook the dog. But she was 100% sure he physically grabbed her and held her down.

The partner violence is objectively more concerning than the screaming at a dog. Why? Because partner violence is a bigger red flag and carries greater likelihood that he will also abuse any children than the incident with the dog.

@lakesidewinter

The dog isn't a moot point, it is an indication of how the DH behaves under stress to smaller non verbal living beings that he frustrated with. He picks them up and shakes them. This is a fairly frequent response to babies and it is very dangerous.

Becoming aggressive towards other living beings is not a standard response to being depressed. The aggression suggests something else in addition to depression is at play. This hopefully has been assessed and managed by a health professional.

It is a moot point because cruelty to animals is a red flag that indicates higher risk that domestic violence might occur in future. It’s moot because domestic violence has already occured according to the OP. The partner violence she experienced means an even greater risk to any baby/child.

I agree depression by itself doesn’t cause rage and aggression. A cause could be cPTSD. It is very common for victims of violence or of witnessing violence, become perpetrators. The husband needs serious, long term therapy to address his issues. A 2yr remission of violent behaviour isn’t full recovery. It could come back. OP is in a dangerous situation and should leave.

If she chooses to stay (not what I would advise), she should only on condition that Social services is involved and husband is undergoing such therapy and be ready to leave in an instant- have a plan B a place of sanctuary to go to.

We try to keep him calm

I could cry for you OP. You are not responsible keeping him calm. The responsibility for that is entirely his.

When your attention is split between calming a grumping baby or your DH, which one will you pick, and what do you think the consequences will be? You probably don’t think this will happen, but it will.

I remember calling round a work colleague’s house to drop off something heavy only to find him mid-tantrum with his wife and elderly mother trying to placate him. Quietly but frantically they tried to dissuade me from bothering him mid-tantrum to ask for his help lifting it out of the car. I had gone out of my way to drop it round and was doing him a favour. What really shocked me was how unashamed he was. He truly believed it was the job of the women around him to put up with this shit. I don’t know if he was ever violent to them, but as I said I needed to leave in five minutes and would be waiting by the car I did honestly think he might hit one of us. Please, please don’t be one of those women.

Actually I think something along the lines of PTSD may sum this up, he even became a recluse until we moved away from the abusive colleagues and clients and back to family. This is when he started to become his old self.

There was no way I was going to have a baby with him when he was bad. He did not force me into getting pregnant now.

It was my also my decision to tell the MW as I had read about DV starting/getting worse during pregnancy, which as I say it has not. I guess this statistic worried me as we still argue occasionally.

The keeping calm thing is during an argument. I give him a little reminder and he takes a breath to stop himself escalating being continuing to talk rationally.

On another note, I see what some people are saying about animal cruelty and human violence are different. How many people actually practice animal cruelty as the norm to train dogs, but say hitting and punishing children is wrong? And these people will not form the statistics referred to, as the cruelty is not extreme and the RSPCA are not aware. Likewise there will be people who think slapping a child after giving it a warning and the option to behave are okay, but doing the same to an animal is not because the animal cannot understand the warning.

On another note, I see what some people are saying about animal cruelty and human violence are different. How many people actually practice animal cruelty as the norm to train dogs, but say hitting and punishing children is wrong? And these people will not form the statistics referred to, as the cruelty is not extreme and the RSPCA are not aware. Likewise there will be people who think slapping a child after giving it a warning and the option to behave are okay, but doing the same to an animal is not because the animal cannot understand the warning.

I am afraid I don't quite follow what you are saying there. But the examples you give are not necessarily examples of someone being angry and out of control. Making a decision to consistently use physical punishment in training is horrible in a different way...it is mostly not out of control anger making someone do things they normally would not.

Your DP shook and shouted at the dog not because he thought in advance it made sense, but because he lost control of himself and took his feelings out on the dog for no real reason other than uncontrolled anger and frustration. That seems dangerous in the context of caring for a baby.

Christ he has messed you up so much.

Turns out I've missed my first chance with SS. They rang yesterday and I didn't have my phone, but they asked me to ring back. When I did today apparently they have made a decision about us because they couldn't talk to me, based solely on the referral, which she read to me and it wasn't quite accurate (like Chinese whispers - MW says this, safeguarding lead says this ... etc).

She didn't want to know anything, when I tried to describe the situation she also called it minimising, and was actually being sarcastic and know-it-all with me 'he blames you for his behaviour does he', when she knows barely anything about us. I am far from a perfect wife - no, I do not condone his behaviour as okay or normal, hence why I told my bosses and the MW, but I do understand my actual behaviour and how he perceived it at the time caused him additional mental anguish and at the time he was unequipped to deal with his feelings, whereas he now has better coping mechanisms. I guess I should have tackled his childish tantrums 10 years ago rather than just ignoring them (i.e. standing my ground and not giving into his demands).

From my conversation with her today, and the many responses on here ... how do I rationally explain myself to a SW if everything I say is going to be perceived as "minimising" and met with "seen-it-all" before prejudice based on other cases, rather than what I believe to be an "in hindsight" objective analysis of both of our behaviours? I'm a scientist - by nature I critically analyse all sides and I don't like the fact that they won't let me tell all sides without thinking that I am 'minimising' the severity.

And yes, I am aware of the severity of shaking a baby, and also aware I could face a sentence if anything happened to our baby, so I wouldn't put it at risk. I do welcome additional support where needed, it's just SS sounded so scary! Now today I'm newly worried as SS has made an initial assessment from Chinese whispers, and wants to visit.

I'm not the best with tact - how do I explain to him the impending visit from a SW, especially when they are visiting with incorrect facts? I had told him we were going to have additional support due to our past histories with mental health, and he seemed to accept that no issues, but do I need to warn him that I know it's a SW that will be assessing us? Do I claim that the SW has looked into our medical/police record and that's how they know everything? No I'm not worried he'll hurt me or anything that bad, as I said to the SW, I think at worst it may lead to the silent treatment for a few days whilst he feels hurt and betrayed.

@Nixina

Actually I think something along the lines of PTSD may sum this up, he even became a recluse until we moved away from the abusive colleagues and clients and back to family. This is when he started to become his old self.

There was no way I was going to have a baby with him when he was bad. He did not force me into getting pregnant now.

It was my also my decision to tell the MW as I had read about DV starting/getting worse during pregnancy, which as I say it has not. I guess this statistic worried me as we still argue occasionally.

The keeping calm thing is during an argument. I give him a little reminder and he takes a breath to stop himself escalating being continuing to talk rationally.

On another note, I see what some people are saying about animal cruelty and human violence are different. How many people actually practice animal cruelty as the norm to train dogs, but say hitting and punishing children is wrong? And these people will not form the statistics referred to, as the cruelty is not extreme and the RSPCA are not aware. Likewise there will be people who think slapping a child after giving it a warning and the option to behave are okay, but doing the same to an animal is not because the animal cannot understand the warning.

That makes me worried on so many levels. He is abusive and you are accommodating it with calming him down and creating excuses. It doesn't look like you will leave him.

@Inkpaperstars

On another note, I see what some people are saying about animal cruelty and human violence are different. How many people actually practice animal cruelty as the norm to train dogs, but say hitting and punishing children is wrong? And these people will not form the statistics referred to, as the cruelty is not extreme and the RSPCA are not aware. Likewise there will be people who think slapping a child after giving it a warning and the option to behave are okay, but doing the same to an animal is not because the animal cannot understand the warning.

I am afraid I don't quite follow what you are saying there. But the examples you give are not necessarily examples of someone being angry and out of control. Making a decision to consistently use physical punishment in training is horrible in a different way...it is mostly not out of control anger making someone do things they normally would not.

Your DP shook and shouted at the dog not because he thought in advance it made sense, but because he lost control of himself and took his feelings out on the dog for no real reason other than uncontrolled anger and frustration. That seems dangerous in the context of caring for a baby.

Not normalising DH behaviour here ... just saying I can see why some people are saying the 2 may not be linked.

The keeping calm thing is during an argument. I give him a little reminder and he takes a breath to stop himself escalating being continuing to talk rationally.

So you're going to be present at all times when he is with his baby-toddler-child? Do you realise just how much people can get riled by little children, exponentially so in reduced sleep? How do you know that he's not going to scream at the baby who has been crying for an hour at 1am?

On another note, I see what some people are saying about animal cruelty and human violence are different. How many people actually practice animal cruelty as the norm to train dogs, but say hitting and punishing children is wrong? And these people will not form the statistics referred to, as the cruelty is not extreme and the RSPCA are not aware. Likewise there will be people who think slapping a child after giving it a warning and the option to behave are okay, but doing the same to an animal is not because the animal cannot understand the warning.

This isn't entirely making sense to me. It sounds like you're twisting things around to justify his behaviour. To be clear:

1. It's not ok to abuse animals and most people don't.
2. It's not ok to abuse children and most people don't.
3. It's not ok to abuse adults and most people don't
4. It doesn't matter if someone somewhere disagrees with those norms, or abuses somebody or an animal, it still doesn't make it ok. Ever.

People are responding in ways that may seem harsh because they se some massive red flags and are concerned. What's good for you though is that the midwife is referring this. SS are very busy so if you just let them know what's going on now and went on then, if they see no problem they'll be away very quickly. The flip side though is that they will stay in co tact with you if they have concerns. You should pay attention to that. They'd not do it to fill in their time.