SAHMs...would you encourage your daughters to SAHM or WOHM ?

[mozhe]

I ask out of genuine interest....people have often said to me that I became a committed WOHM because I had such a strong model in my own mother....and I would certainly be very disappointed if one of my own daughters chose to be a SAHM.
SAHMs what do you think ? And why ?

LA, do say because I have never ever posted as two people anywhere on the internet. Who are those who make the same grammatical errors?

Some stay at home mothers might not realise how cross somef ull time working mothers actually are at the damge you do to the prospects of our daughtres. Every women who asks to work part time is damaging the careers of teir daughters where there are not the same number of men asking for part time work or giving up because you cause the message to go out - women aren't worth a candle, they disappear and are not worth training. Those that work part time for a year or two and then go back and do great - fine but those who say they're coming back, then change their mind or who come back and haen't sorted out proper child care or more to the point forced their husband to be as responsible for children as they are and are constantly off sick or sloping off early they really really do harm other women. That's quite a burden you carry. Obviously ilf you've just jacked in a job on the Tesco checkout my point isn't so valid,

If you do want your daughters to be housewives then make sure they pick an education which fits to that otherwise you're bringing them up for one thing and not really training them for the housewife men pleasing subservient role. The best happiest housewives seem to be those who always saw it as their lot to serve and were brought up to marry young often in cultures where that is the norm and they don't have any tensions between how they think they ought to be and work and what they want - so make sure you condition them well so housewife as career is just the job for them.

On the very sad death thing one of the widowers I know his wife worked full time and this is interesting - she was sick for a while and left her money for the children (not her husband) and to educate them which her sister and mother manage so tehre is he unable to use the money to pay off the mortgage, take holidays or whatever but forced by the trust to educate them privately. But at least they had that life insurance. The other widower could never get it because his wife was ill for so long. I have lots which probably means I'll die when I'm over 90.

Aloha, my GP example was just that an example. Change it for police officer, teacher, nurse, whatever. Many women require 100s of tax payers pounds to be trained. If they then quit their jobs that's a waste. This is also the case for men or childless women who for example emigrate. An aside but taxpayers have just paid for years of training for my cousin who is now a victim of this farce for employing junior doctors. He couldn't get a job in this country in A + E, his lifetime ambition so he got on the phone to his mate in Australia who offered him a job on the spot. HE's emigrating and we've lost all that training and a talented doctor.

I don't agree with you on the part-time thing Xenia. Again, missing from this debate is the fathers who are having to work long hours to compensate for their wives' loss of earning. Many are resentful and in my view many families miss out on quality time as a family + dads with kids alone. Men both partly produce and are victims of the long hours culture. My ideal soceity would have mothers and fathers both working but less hours so that there is money and the role model of both men and women sharing childcare and paid work. But again that's just me.

"but again, that's just me"

Yes, of course dear. You are the only person on earth who wants a fairer world
As it happens my dh and I both work from home in similar jobs. My ds has just been spectacularly sick for the umpteenth time. We both cleared up, my dh is the one who sleeps on the floor in the children's rooms, and we are not panicking about how to cope because ds won't be going to school tomorrow.
But of course, unless we are both working full time, somehow we are both cheating dear old Gordon and showing our children a poor example. Apparently.

Lots of people in average income jobs also do not get the benefits you are talking about. People in low waged jobs (there are millions of them - look at the average wage in this country and then compare to the number of "economically active"), self-employed people, etc. Average wages are extraordinarily low and in work benefits are not much to shout about for a large number of workers in this country.

Yes if she'd been a WOHM they wouldn't have had some of the financial hardship they are now suffering. Equally, if we had an adequate welfare state, they wouldn't have some of the financial hardship they are now suffering. I could equally accuse you of being obtuse for failing to grasp that, but it would be rude. As for being insensitive, well maybe I am and if so I apologise for upsetting you, but I'm at a loss to know how to express myself sensitively enough for you.

Woahhhh!

Angry at SAHMs, angry at part-time workers, angry at the majority of men. That's a lot of people you're angry at, there, Xenia. Your hositlity towards other women (your hostility period) is far more damaging to your daughters than my choice to work part-time, I should imagine.

(I also think you are an insufferable snob. Personally, I didn't 'jack in a job at Tesco' before I 'bailed out' to look after my kids. Infact, I'd wager that my job was superior in status and pay to yours, and pro-rata, probably still is. However, unlike you, I don't think that my level of education or renumeration make me somehow morally superior to anybody else - and neithe rof those issues have any bearing on my competence as - or enjoyment of being - a mother).

Well no one would ever post in places where everyone was a lobotomised Stepford Wife with the same view posting "I agree", "I agree" like robots. It's interesting when people disagree so we can learn from each other.

Aloha, I don't know why you feel the need to justify yourself to me. I repeat I am not telling other people how to live their lives. I am not suggesting that there is a right or a wrong way. There is not easy or right way to be a mum (or a dad). And I'm part-time too. I fit my hours around my dds' school hours. It annoys me that dp works the same hours as I do (probably less) for a full-time wage but that's to do with us teaching different subjects and working at different institutions rather than him being male and me female.

Squirrel. All jobs offer sick pay. If you don't have a job you don't get sick pay. NEither do you get a pension except for the state one etc etc. You do get the NHS and you do get unemployment benefit. I don't think I have a problem with that.

That's your standard response when you run out of nasty, negative comments to make about anyone with a different opinion from your own, Xenia. Yawn.

Oh don't take any notice of Xenia, LA. She has these turns regularly, she can't help herself.

What was Mozhe saying earlier on about how it's mostly the SAHMs who get angry/ offensive? Telling half the people on the thread they're damaging their dd's careers (when in fact what they may be doing is pushing open the door to make pt challenging, senior work a reality by the time they get to adulthood) is not at all aggressive, is it?

oh and Xenia - you're right...you DO have a lot to learn.

In defense of Paula and her dd.

My dts2 wants to be an astronaut. Do I think he will? Optimistically I would say you never know, realistically I doubt it. I would never, never dare to destroy his dreams at the age of 5 to dictate to him his standing in life.

That is what my mum did to me, I spent years hearing how everything I wanted to do was (wrinkled nose) "Oh you don't want to do that do you."

As a result I had no confidence to ever do what I wanted to do until the point I had children and thought I don't give a damn that everyone expects me to pop the boys into childcare. I want to do it.

So Paula is quite right to feel proud of her dd. If her dd becomes a housewife or not her mum will be there for her, not standing on the sidelines sneering at her.

I am telling you all, when you do that to a child you affect their whole lives. I am doing my degree, the one she said I would never get to do, through the OU. Because of her attitude I haven't even told my mum I am doing it, do you want your dd's to ever think they cannot be open about their lives to you? Because that is what will happen.

Oh and btw b/w, you also misread the statistics on part time pay. The gap of 40% is not between men and women who both work part time, it is between women's part time earnings, and men's full time earnings. The gap is not so much between genders as between f/t and part time pay, but this is largely because p/t jobs are concentrated in teh low pay sector (stacking shelves, say) and is largely to do with the sector, not the part time nature of the employment.
A female gp working p/t will NOT earn 40% less than a male gp work p/t.
And things are changing - fast. Work is very different today to how it used to be.

God, why would I want to 'justify' myself to you? I am merely explaining, gently, that you don't have such a unique position on the moral high ground. I thought you might find that both interesting and enlightening.

I have to say though, I would go pale if my dd started using the word 'housewife'. Ds is very keen to be a 'daddy' when he grows up. And a scientist sometimes. Or a book writer.
DD is going to be a 'shouty queen'.

I see. There is a 40% gap between what men in fulltime work earn per hour and what women in partime work earn per hour. Yes, that's to do with the nature of the partime work but arguably also because of the fact that the majority of partime workers are women and tehrefore their work is undervalued. There was a case about this recently whre it was discovered that male caretakers earned more than female dinnerladies. I think the dinnerladies won. But still a 17% gap between men and women in full time work. Don't you accept that these figures are disturbing?

Let them eat cake then!! How desperately offensive. So glad that you are fully insured and can arrange a childminder at a moment's notice. What you may find is that when you are on a teacher's wage (just one wage) and paying a mortgage as well as supporting a family of 4 that these things are not that easy.

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I must respond to this, because you've smudged my response in with someone elses and completely misread what I said.

I am not at deaths door, but do have very poor health, and yes, but husband, on a quite average wage has had to take time off, and we do not put our kids with a childminder when I am hospitalized. We pay a mortgage and support a family of 6 as it happens. If I had been working it would have made no difference at all to our situation, except to take me away from my young children.

No, they don't have the example of a mother going out to earn money. They do, however, have the example of a family working together in difficult times. Whether they ever earn money or not, they will face difficult times, so I'm quite happy with them developing that skill.

ALoha I never claimed the moral high ground. I never claimed that my arguments were anything to do with 'morality'. I have been stressing the need for women to make informed decsions about childcare. Not telling you what to do just suggesting there's a general lack of awareness. Confirmed by many posteers.

Sorry I don't get that there's a lack of awareness.

Where is your evidence for that?

People have said things like : "I'll encourage her to do what's best for her/ what she wants etc. etc."

Why does that equate to a lack of awareness?

or should I say

I don't know why housewife should be such a dirty word. Its what I do, I'm not ashamed of that

Suebaroo, I am sorry to hear about your health. And sorry I didn't acknowledge the 2 posters when I quoted from you both.

With respect, it would have made a difference to your situation if you had been working outside thehome in that you would have got sick pay. Please don't misunderstand me I am not saying that you or anyone else should therefore do paid work just that sick pay does make a difference to many people mothers, fathers, whatever. It's one reason that I went back to work after my dds. I had a scare some years ago and it made me think what would happen to my family if I got sick.

Aloha, I love your post of 21.15.01
Could say so much more to blackwhitecat but think i shall parp myself away from too much smugness all around

Of course I think women should have equal pay for equal work! Duh!
I fail to see why that means that it is evil for a parent to take a bit of time off the treadmill to raise their own children.