Am I the only one who worries that modern parenting techniques will result in a nation of brats who expect everybody

[Twiglett]

to do what they want them to do, to not exhibit any negative emotions or vocabulary and to accept any way they act

I do wonder sometimes when I see some of the vehement opinions expressed on here

but then I hope this is only the nature of parenting toddlers and that these children will start to get an idea of what real life is like as they grow up and before they get rudely thrust into it not understanding why the world doesn't bend to their every whim nor explain everything in minute detail

I feel the same about the children at ds1's nursery school. They are from a very wide range of social backgrounds (best thing about where I live) and are without exception lovely. I would take any one of them home, I love picking ds1 up and taking him in, not only because I like doing that ritual with him, but because I get to see all the other lovely children and the incredible expert teachers/helpers who look after them. I have always been a pretty gruff and crusty person, but I can't gush enough about the teachers/children/parents I see there. Yes, there are social problems (there always have been - but hey, we're not at war, or in famine) Bollocks to the idea that our civilisation is going down the pan . People were saying that in the 1590s

Actually there are a lot of good things about our generation and our children

Message withdrawn

if you google continuum concept, you will come up with the website which gives a good perspective on the book.

didn't want to mention it earlier because i feel out of tune with this idea sometimes.

I haven`t read the whole thread but I just read the words "continuum concept" by kiskidee. This book is amazing.

Actually its "modern" parenting (1950s onward) that seems to be <span class="italic">causing</span> all the problems. "if you pick him up, youre spoiling him" / buying kids love with "things" instead of spending time with them/ giving kids choices at the mealtable instead of them being given the food that is available/ sleep "training".
All of these things are modern ideas, and indeed they are spoiling kids and could be creating adults with low self esteem.
The continuum concept talks about how far civil western society has come from what the child or baby really needs. They DO need boundaries, they DO need affection, they DO need to be responded to every time they are upset.
They DONT need material things- new toys, clothes, etc. They DONT need choices at the mealtable. In fact they need the adult to be in control, otherwise the child feels vulnerable. They DONT need mum to sit and play with them and devote all her time to them, but they generally need her to "just be available when shes needed".

I know everyone`S parenting choices suit the parents, but if ever a parenting style made sense to me, its the COntinuum concept, which is actually a very ancient form of parenting.

"It is so helpful to remember that babies and small children are at certain stages of neurological development - pointing out when reasoning is a waste of time because they haven't got to the stage when their brain can process such sophisticated social-spatial concepts, when restlessness and energy need to be discharged and it seems like naughtiness etc".

danae - no idea why anyone would mock that, I totally agree. The one and only book which completley changed the way I saw ds behaviour is a book by the Child Development Institute (American), written by experts on child psychology, etc. I love the book beacuse it doesn't say well look here is what you have to DO with such and such behaviour, it just gives the different STAGES from birth, explains what is going on with their physical, mental, emotional development and says THIS IS NORMAL and THIS IS WHAT YOU CAN EXPECT FROM A THREE YEAR OLD, etc.

So really it is trying to say that the parents EXPECTATIONS need to be modified at each stage of development.
Brilliant stuff.

yellowrose what's the book called please?

this

pippi - I got it on Amazon, but you may get it elsewhere cheaper

Aloha, thank you for your kind post.
You are right, I do not remember being 3.

Was the meal ruined ? - what is my defintion of ruined - well, we were only there for a very short time, less than 1/2 hour - and we sit at home easily, at the table EVERY NIGHT for almost 1/2 hr, so that shouldn't be a problem - we explained to ds that we were going out - this is not that common an occurance, thus he should have been pleased.

The reason why he should have been pleased, was that I was, when I was young I was pleased : -

I remember growing up. When my mum told me that we were going out , i remember being excited. We were going to canterbury. And we all knew what that meant. It meant shopping. and possibly something being bought for us. And...... we would be able to throw our pennies into the fountain . HOOORAh we loved that ( we being me and my two older brothers).

And the best bit was .... we, if good, would have a ...... knicker-blocker-glory - how could could life get any better ?????

I was not bribed to be good. I didn't think of it as if you were good , you will get kniker-blocker - I Suppose that is what it was, but I was not bribed, under an iron rod. I just knew what was expected of me. And I complied. I behaved well , nearly all the time.

Certainly in public.

He was whiney in the car to the harvester. Answering back. Saying no, I won't.
Wouldn't sit still. Wouldn't eat properly. playing with his food and it going everywhere.
whiney and making loud noises. people were staring.
I tried ignoring. I asked him softly.
We had talked about all this, to him, before we went. Said, if you don't behave, we won't go out agian - type thing.

Dh and I found the whole experience unrelaxing, uncomfortable, embarrassing. We agreed that we probably shouldn't have come.

And no, he wasn't tired or ill.
Its like it every time.

He is praised alot - for good behaviour, and other things.

"Your colouring is getting better and better darling, I am so proud, its lovely, well done."

He is given lots of kisses and cuddles and we sit together cuddling, reading a story pre-bedtime, EVERYNIGHT.

Is this sort of praise wrong ?

I am not in a panic.
I am fed up.
I want to parent in the way my mum did.
I want to re-create the kind of loving, disciplined environment that my mum & dad created for our three of us.

I do think it is possible and not unreasonable for my son to behave towards me, the way I behaved towards my mum.

I am just not sure how to achieve this.

Maybe I phrased it wrongly, when I said I didn't have the child I wanted. What I mean is I am not parenting in the way I wanted. I have not created the love and disciplined home environment, that I wanted.

I wish I could have simplistic instructions as to how to achieve the upbringing, for my, son, as I had.

He is an angel.

But I don't want to relax about this issue. I want to change my parenting.

Any suggestions ?

I am always a bit confused about modern 'liberal' parents spoiling their children. I would say that I am somewhere towards the 'lentil' side of the mumsnet continuum, but these are the things that I believe in:

Family meals around the table with no television.

Restricted television, one TV in the house that we all watch together.

Set bedtimes, bedtime routine

Respect for other people.

Lots of running around outside in the mud/sand/leaves

Now, whether you are into the naughty step, smacking, or not, I think most mumsnetters would agree with the above, and I could go on. These are positive modern parenting techniques.

Regarding manners, DS picks up things like please and thank you in the same way that he knows that the word for an animal that has four legs and barks is a dog. He knows that is the language of the world around him. Obviously he also gets cross and does things that to me are completely illogical, but then he is 3, not 35 like me.

And yes, he is only 3.
That is young.
But not young enough , not to understand.

One poster, said it was practically all over by 6.

I don't think its ever too young to set some simplistic boundaries and rules.

I too , like aloha and greensleeves, love going to ds's nursery - my picking him up, often takes 1/2 an hour, cause I love meeting & more than anything, watching the other children. I LOVE IT.

Hello to shell3 - nice to know that someone else had an extremely happy , loving, disciplined, upbringing, that they too would like to re-create.

Mplatypus.

I too agree with all your list.
I do all those things.
I think they are just commonsense.

another fantastic book or two rather are

the social baby

and

the social toddler

they are available from here or amazon

the website: www.childrenproject.co.uk gives more information of what these books are about. they put them together.

Oblomov, I don't think a 3 year old is really capable of anticipating whether a visit to the Harvester will be fun or not. Also, there may be some children who enjoy the performance of going to a restaurant, on a good day, but I would imagine that most 3 year olds find all the rules of being at a restaurant a bit of a strain. I'd say you have a 50/50 chance of it going OK.

Also, different 3 year olds have different personalities. One 3 year old may find it easy to sit still in adult company but be less good at being adventurous in the playground, another 3 year old may find it impossible to sit still, but love going swimming. We all have different personalities, and we didn't receive them when we were 21. I think you are probably doing better than you think.

I find it difficult to remember what it was like parenting an 18 month old, so please remember, that your mum may be looking back at your childhoods with a bit of rose tinted spectacles. (I know my mum does!)

I think it is important to remember that this is a parenting site, and as such most of the posters on here take their parenting seriously, regardless of diverse views and opinions. What works for one may be seen as abhorrent by another, but the fact remains that whatever we do, we do it for a specific reason we have considered. I think the OP's suggestion is directed more at the (very large number) of parents for whom parenting is an alien concept. It would be naive to think that everybody takes their responsibilities seriously. Every day I see people who are parents, but only in the biological sense of the word. Their primary concern is for themselves, and chucking money and branded goods at their children because it is either easier than saying 'no' or just to keep them out of their hair is about as much consideration as they show their child. There is also an undeniable element of showing off to other adults - it is some kind of badge of status that your child has a Playstation 3/LG mobile phone/Baby Dior outfit and the parents like the way these displays of materialism reflect upon them "Look how well we're doing". The same can be said of the parents who think their child is displaying some sort of superiority over other children because it is always they who dominate in the playground, rather than behave with consideration for the feelings of others, as though empathy or abandoning the 'cool' group to play with the social misfit is a sign of weakness. Trouble is, I'm not convinced this is a modern phenomenon - it has been around forever, but in the past it was a race to be the first family on the street with a TV set, the only family to go abroad on holiday, the idea that your DCs had to be the best-dressed at church on Sunday. There has always been a certain amount of nose-thumbing amongst parents, it's just that now we are parents ourselves, we notice it.

there is a real difference between unconditional love and spoiling your child. Unconditional love means that your child knows and feels totally secure and loved [not in public gushy declarations] It might seem obvious but it is something i never felt growing up and am determined that ds will grow up with that backbone of security and feeling of well being. We don't get him that many material things though. And we have discipline too. But i actually thing a lot of teenagers' problems stem from the fact that they see the world through the importance of material things, instead of valuing human relationships and being brought up with an appreciation of music and art [ok i know i am sounding wanky but music and art and drama has all but disappeared from our schools and can enrich children's lives and creativity across the social classes]. I just think people can confuse material giving with real nurturing values. [ruty goes off to weave some lentils]

Its funny that a thread as important as this sticks with you, as do many of the excellent comments.

I was thinking in bed last night about a post earlier where a thoughtful mum said we must try not to be judgemental.

The thing is that we do have to be otherwise we have no boundary.

If somebody is judging you, be it the law, your teacher, your parents, it is that which keeps the parameters for good and bad.

I think we do need to be judgemental but be kinder when putting our point of view across.

Sakura totally agree.

I think a problem is that the 'spoiling' is designed to shut children up - we are a generation of spoilt adults. For the average UK adult (and I know not everyone), life is very comfortable. We have entertainment, hot water, ready made food, clothes on demand. We are not necessarily happy, but we have an environment where you can pretty much have any food you want at any time (no rationing, produce available all year round), everything in the shops is available with a credit card and everyday tasks like washing clothes are easy (As another point, I suppose that is what it means to be poor in the UK now - to be locked out of that have anything society).

However, children don't really fit into that lifestyle very well. They don't let you sleep when you want, go out when you want, shop when you want, lock yourself in your own little world. To be fair I had a hard time adjusting when I had DS, largely because I was no longer in control of my own life. (Now DS and DD have absorbed me into the collective, and I wouldn't know how to live another way ). However, I suppose its true that some parents seem to think that as they can use a credit card to buy a plane ticket, so they can parent via credit card - that its possible not to make that life shift.

I think what is really "wrong" with so called modern parenting is that it has become a multi-billion £ industry. There are a lot of gurus out there giving out tosh advice and many of us buy into it because they are this or that expert and we think they must therefore be RIGHT !

In my mum's time (she had 5 sisters) older sisters, mums, aunts, cousins, etc would "teach" you how to breastfeed, how to wean, how to descipline, etc. I think my mum's generation find it absurd that my generation (I am 39) spend so much time pouring through books and the net for info. they got by talking to their relatives !

Also the lack of a proper extended family has a serious impact on children, esp. in the big cities. I don't live anywhere remotely near any of my relatives, consequently ds has no cousins to play with. I think that is a damned shame. Both parents and children have become "isolated", which seems crazy when you live in a place like London with a pop. of 15 million during the day. I think I would have found life with a newborn easier, less stressful more fun if I had had lots of lovely relatives to help me and guide me.

Now I muddle through like everyone else, mostly by reading (and SOMETIMES using my own commonsesnse and brain !) I think it will be even tougher for ds when he becomes a parent. It's all going down hill in terms of community.

Agree yellow. By the time our lo's have dc's Britain might be some facist dictatorship where doing anything out of the "norm" could get you put away!!!!
Of course this is worst case, but that could well be in 30 yrs and look how much the world has changed in the LAST 30 years.

Think I may not be SO far off the mark!!!!!

IMHO if children are disruptive,cheeky,violent at primary school age and the parents have difficulty coping,then god help the parents when the children are teenagers!
Alot of children I know have no respect for their own parents,never mind other adults,and this behaviour goes unchecked.In mty experience if parents cannot set boundaries for behaviour with young children they have no hope with stroppy teens.
Give me a toddler tantrum anyday!

yellowrose I have determined not to read a thing (except in urgent medical situations) when my next child is born (sometime next week!)

I tied myself in knots last time trying to find the master discourse of parenthood. Everyone tells you there's something that will 'work' to make your baby a 'good' one. Mine just wasn't 'good', he was hyperalert and wanted constant entertainment in the day. That was the way he was. I would have done a lot better developing techniques to deal with that and to dwell on the good things about him rather than trying to assimilate him into routines or alter his behaviour in any way.

This time I have learned the basics from previous experience and from sharing parenting with friends. In the past I would have known this from relatives, of course. First time parenting can really be a nightmare in this society I think, because we have lost contact with the bodily and emotional realities of being both a parent and a child. Then when we discover them for ourselves, if they don't fit with the official or popular myths, it's somehow impossible to articulate them.

Southeastastra, I found this REALLY interesting (as you wrote above):

"i find this thread quite interesting as i'm doing an nvq in playwork at the moment. the emphasis is now on 'free play'. because children are so cosseted up and not allowed freedon, we as playworkers are being taught that we have to let the children in our care all the freedoms/risks that they aren't allowed at home."

I totally agree with this. I think there is weird irony where kids are given a lot of 'freedom' in their behaviour (you can do what you like and get away with it) and yet are very OVER-protected (children must be supervised at all times).

My instinct is to give my child a lot of freedom in the way he plays/ explores the world/ learns stuff rather than forcing him down certain routes (small example: neither "you have to eat all your food by yourself" nor "you have to be spoonfed everything"). I also intend to give him STRICT boundaries in terms of his behaviour and expect 'no' to actually have the desired effect.

whywhy - you said: "I have determined not to read a thing (except in urgent medical situations) when my next child is born (sometime next week!)" - congrats. and good luck with the new baby [smile}. I think what you say is very sensible, there is nothing like learning how to parent as to learn by experience

I think subsequent children aren't easier, but certainly I have had in my head numerous things I would do differently, esp. with a newborn