Am I the only one who worries that modern parenting techniques will result in a nation of brats who expect everybody

[Twiglett]

to do what they want them to do, to not exhibit any negative emotions or vocabulary and to accept any way they act

I do wonder sometimes when I see some of the vehement opinions expressed on here

but then I hope this is only the nature of parenting toddlers and that these children will start to get an idea of what real life is like as they grow up and before they get rudely thrust into it not understanding why the world doesn't bend to their every whim nor explain everything in minute detail

twiglett, positive parenting, i.e. praising what our children do right, ignoring bad behaviour and where it cannot be ignored, demonstrating natural consequences of actions i.e. if you misbehave in x situation then we won't be able to do it again is not an easy parently options, it is an incredibly hard option.

when i do it, the results are fantastic, ds's misbehaviour results from three factors:

1. being ill
2. resultant lack of sleep
3. my being INCONSISTENT in terms of how I parent, in other words, sometimes coming down like a ton of bricks in an otherwise positive parenting household.

'real life' is a euphemism for 'tough, life is sh*t so deal with it'.

i'm afraid I cannot agree that demonstrating this to toddlers will in some way lead to them behaving better, quite the opposite.

love and security breed good behaviour...parents that are completely unboundaried (i.e. NO consequences for any actions) are often acting out of guilt or on the basis of the crap ways that they were parented.

"parents that are completely unboundaried (i.e. NO consequences for any actions) are often acting out of guilt or on the basis of the crap ways that they were parented".

Oh god so true sophable.

Yellow, makes absolute sense to me. I always try to hug/kiss/play as well, to balance the times when I say no and have to punish her for not listening/doing as she's told(which are my main probs with her-but she's 3 so..........).

It's soooooo hard to be a parent, cos I feel you HAVE to get it right to a great degree as you are responsible for what kind of person they willbe, and their personalities for their whole life are shaped by their life experiences until they are about 6yo, apparently, by which time it doesn't matter what you do(within reason obviously).
What huge responsibility.
If DD1 and me have had a bad day, then I make sure I tell her that even when I shout at her, or am cross, that I ALWAYS love her.
And she KNOWS I love her!!! Bless.

Oblomov, I honestly think you don't remember being three - we don't - so you are really expecting too much of him, which guarantees disappointment, frustration and fear and panic (that you are failing, that he is going to hell in a handcart, asbo-teen in waiting etc) and that fear manifests itself as anger. Honestly, calm down. Three year olds are discovering themselves as individuals still, have almost no empathy, tons of physical energy and very little impulse control. When you say the meal was 'ruined' what do you mean? He got down? Wanted to play? So much of this is normal and the best possible way to ensure as much compliant behaviour as your child is capable of is it to be engaged with your child and praise every single thing that is remotely pleasing to you. You sound in a complete panic about him, but he is only three! Of course he will say no sometimes. He's not a robot. I remember someone saying how even when they were frustrated and angry, they would suddenly look at this tiny, physically weak little person who is basically entirely at our mercy for everything in their lives, but still has the courage to say 'no' to us. That really struck a chord with me. You say, "None of this seems to have created the child we want" - but you know, you can't always have the child you want, you have hte child you have. God, I'm not perfect, I get so fed up with my kids sometimes, but when I look back at their 'bad' behaviour, it so very rarely is. They get hungry, thirsty, tired, bored, I'm stressed or tired, and things go wrong. Your son sounds an absolute angel. He doesn't hurt people, he loves you. I think you maybe need to relax a little.

danae: can i suggest you read 'the continuum concept' by jean leidorff. from another post you made ages ago i think you know something about evolutionary biology? i think it fits in with this book.

aloha, you know what, that post nearly made me cry.

i wish with all my heart i could remember that when I'm feeling frustrated and dictatorial

I held ds onto his chair at suppertime tonight (didn't last long but is unforgiveable). it was when i ignored him that he piped up 'i've had a good idea mummy. why don't i sit down and eat my supper and we can talk about how you make a table' [heartbreaking emoticon]

he is coming up to 3.5

Ah it's so chastening isn't it when they are more in control of themselves than we are? I know that feeling all too well. They are so bloody brave sometimes too.
I never look back at stuff my kids have done with shame, but I do feel ashamed at things I have said and done. I suspect they behave rather better than I do!

Fantastic posts Aloha.

sophable he sounds delightful....

most of us will never be able to follow Aloha's very sensible advice much of the time. We've got to forgive ourselves a bit too for wanting to just have a break and fit in with the child-unfriendly world we live in.

I can understand oblomov's frustration in the restaurant- you have this idea of what a nice thing it will be to do, to go out with your favourite little person, and then the noise starts up and people start looking at you, and it's all too easy to get stressed out and start to think you've got a Problem Child.

i wish i could copy aloha's post to an acquaintance who i think is expecting to be the perfect mum to a perfect child but already know that she thinks i have a screw loose.

We all have our moments of shame don't we.

i feel abject.

i think as parents we do get it right a lot of the time, but when I get it wrong i get it soooo wrong.

ds watches far too much tv, and the other day, I was carrying too much shopping (huge vat of bubble liquid for ds's bubble making gun, two pairs of shoes for ds) and ds was on his bike and i got in a total grump (he'd been up for 3 hours night before and was dealing with it far better than i was) and when he said that i was pushing him on his bike too fast i replied 'tough shit'.

god confessions of a totally shite mother or what.

i apologised when we got home and talked to him about how grumpy I get if I haven't had any sleep, and the fact that we shouldn't ever use that word (he piped up that calling someone stupid or saying 'naaa' instead of 'no' was rude too).

oh god.

i need to start a confessional thread all of my own i think.

Damn right we do, paula. Having kids turns you inside out emotionally. Lots of times.

Have only read the beginning and end of this, but - fab post, Aloha.

It's not the impulsive toddler-type behaviour that bothers me, at all. I did have a 'moment', though, when I had spent 45 minutes at a local library as a volunteer reading to a group of 3-6-year-olds (most of them at the older end of that bracket) and at the end they just skipped out without saying thankyou. What was much worse, though, was that none of the parents did either.

sophable- sleep deprivation is torture- you have apologised to your very emotionally literate-sounding ds- fair dos I think

but I will have to join you on that confessional thread

I get told off by ds for swearing so much- I do not have a leg to stand on when trying to stop him. And I am constantly apologising for grumpiness.

sophable ((((()))))

nobody comes across as LESS of a bad mum than you, that's all I can say. Impetuous and hot-tempered you most certainly are , but with that comes passion/dedication/a very principled person who adores her children. I don't know you, but I do know that much.

So I suppose (to connect back to the OP) I found that lack of basic politeness rather brattish, even though most of them were actually lovely children.

oh thanks darling ladies. v moved.

right.

onwards and upwards.

I completely agree, and I've been there. But the key problem is the expectation. The fact that we have a script in our head and when our children turn out to be completely separate individuals with their own ideas and don't follow our script, we panic. I love Jimjams' posts so much because her child is the 'ultimate nightmare' (I mean that affectionately, btw) he is severely autistic, he doesn't speak, he is highly unpredictable, near-uncontrollable sometimes, can totally melt down at the drop of a (wrongly-shaped) hat and generally be much, much 'worse' than most ordinary children so she approaches all new experiences with a 'well, let's see how it goes, and if he screams, he screams' attitude which I think is pretty cool. Sometimes things are brilliant, sometimes they are disastrous. That's what I think life is often like with small children, and the less we expected our lives to be like adverts or picture postcards, the happier we'd all be.
My children are lovely, by the way!

Sorry, got distracted mid-post!

Berolina, ah but the parents are much more responsible for their manners than small children! I think blaming the kids there (which I know you aren't) would be missing the point. Being a role model in the things that matter to you is, IMO, much more important than enforcing behaviour by coercion.
Sophable, we could all confess to many horrors! Aren't we lucky our children still love us so much

Exactly Aloha - that was why the parents' lack of manners bothered me so much more (quite apart from the whole 'taking volunteers for granted' thing, grrr)

I can't wait to read my children The Water Babies, so I can harp on to them about Mrs Doasyouwouldbedoneby and the terrifying Mrs Bedonebyasyoudid.

It's not simple or easy, this. I think the thread title (sorry Twigggg) is a bit monocausal/simplistic/dareIsayschmugg....

Yes greeny - monocausal. What are 'modern' parenting techniques anyway?

I have to say, all the children I know in ds's class seem really sweet. And whenever I go into school the children look like right little scruffs (no uniform) but there are doors held open and general niceness all over the place.
I think wild inconsistency is a bit of a disaster for children and yes, I do know children who have been pretty spoilt but sometimes its for reasons that you can't always tell at a distance. I think my friend spoilt her oldest daughter, for example, and was totally unable to say 'no' to her, but that might have been because she was born after my friend's first baby died at birth
She still a very wilful girl, but very confident, sociable and clever, and I hope and trust she will turn out well in the end