Why aren't women feminists? Surely no-one thinks all the battles have been won?

[WideWebWitch]

OK, so I don't have any proper evidence to back this up (so don't post I hear you say, oh well, I bet there is some, so I will!) but I gather that increasingly young women aren't feminists and don't believe there's any need for a feminist movement of any kind. They think all the battles have been won. I know for sure they haven't but WHY do they think this? And why would anyone NOT be a feminist? If you're not, why not? I know this conversation has been had before on mn but I'm still interested.

I agree with Janice Turner about New Woman mag rebranding itself because young women don't like the word 'woman' fgs, this is an example of the sort of thing I mean.

O FGS I blame Katie Fecking Price, cause I mean she is so clever innit? Like gettin rich and famous for getting her tits out, she has everything a girl could want innit?

God preserve me from a society that infantalises women and celebrates women who expose their breasts as a career.
Now Katie may be a nice person and she is defintely smarter than Jade BUT I don't want my daughter growing up thinking that being objectified for mens dubious pleasure is a viable career choice.

I feel similar frustration. however - although I have always called myself a feminist I have to admit that in my younger years I thought a lot more battles had been won than actually had. I went to a girls school - which helped - every important role filled by women and girls, - head mistress, head girl, girls doing science, girls getting into good universities girls being given un-gendered careers advice - no door seemed shut, it carried on into university, where I met strong intelligent women and it never occured to us - men and women - that there was much of an issue. In my first job I started to wonder whether a couple of issues with my boss were a woman-thing (years later a male colleague told me he thought I could have taken said boss to the cleaners) and then, the bombshell. kids. I think a hell of a lot of the non-kid battles have been won - not all of them, but a lot. but kids (combined with the fact dh earns shed loads more than me) were like a kick in my idealistic head. So I talk about it. I jump up and down at work about it. Maybe I envy the youngsters their still a bit mis-placed idealism. But I guess the fact is they'll keep it up until something actually effects them as an individual.

Ok trying to make this make sense so here goes.

I'm 24 and was grew up (though not by my parents) in a culture when feminism was a 'dirty word' so to speak - seen as unnecessary and overly radical in a way.

IT was very much - Why would we need feminism - surely all the battles had been won. We were taught we could and would achieve anything and everything. WOmen ran households, brought up children and held down full time jobs. Men were an optional extra. If women came up against sexist attitudes it was seen as always coming from older men and they were pitied for being outdated. If you were held back in your career it was cos you didn't want to do it or weren't good enough. Sexism didn't exist (or so we were taught).

As I have got older I have realised more and more the inequalities that still exist, but it has only been talking to others, especially others on here that I have become more aware of this. But because the belief that there was no inequality was drummed into me so hard, it took along time to realise or become aware of any difference.

That's my take on it anyway.

I would not call myself a Feminist. I think for a lot of women it brings up images of angry feminist like Gloria Steinham. Who wants to be associated with that. many feminist would condem my choice of lifestyle. I am proud and fulfilled to be a SAHM, but so many of these women feel like you have to have a career to be worth anything. I was horrifyed when BIll Clinton was running for president the first time and she made fun of women who stayed at home and baked cookies for their kids. She and the like do not represent me.I am a big believer in equality amongst the sexes, but thats about all we have in common.

"combined with teh fact dh earns shed loads more than me." why on earth did I put that in brackets. In our case it's a very interesting situation to analyse with yuor gender-thinking hat on. dh works in the City, I work for an NGO, so yes, huge earning differential. but dh has lamost exclusively male colleagues and I frequently find myself in female only meetings. dh and I obvioulsy chose our respective careers but the background and the impact it has on our relationship is huge (ironically, I am the one with more freedom - my earning or not makes bugger all difference since my wages = costs of child care give or take a wee bit. dh. on the other hand has to work or the mortgage doesn;t get paid. lots of interesting room for discussion about equality, freedom, power etc etc)

Sorry His wife said it, not him.

"his wife" ?? that'll be Hilary then.

Hilary Clinton, possibly the first female President of the USA................

Hillary (Its two Ls guys) Clinton won't be President. She is to divisive.

That's interesting TheArmadillo. Carmenere, lads mag culture profoundly depresses me too. I went to all girls school too Hat. I remember asking my mum what a feminist was when I was about 14 (so 1980 ) and she wasn't sure whether it was a 'womens libber or someone who's very feminine' and had to look it up. Paulapb, I don't think new feminism disapproves of sahms, quite rightly but interesting that you think it might. Having children does change stuff hat, absolutely, I find the whole family dynamic around it interesting too.

My younger half-sister (now aged 26) told me once "feminists are ball-breaking women out to oppress men and take over the world". Ha! I detect my dad's influence at work there, not that he would ever dare say something like that to me.

What Hillary Clinton actually said is here - "I suppose I could have decided to stay home and bake cookies ... [which she does do, by the way, I have never baked a cookie in my life and do not intend to].. but what I decided to do was fulfil my profession".

She later went on to remark that feminism meant the right to choose work, or home, or both.

As to Gloria Steinem I like her quote "We are talking about a society in which there will be no roles other than those chosen or those earned; we are really talking about humanism."

I agree with both and would go further that to say feminism is about women and men having the right to choose work, or home, or both.

I can't find the quote anywhere I don't have the time to search right now, but Gloria Steinham also said that It was our duty as women to put a woman in the White House, which is a sexist remark and contadicts what she just said there.

Agree it's profoundly depressing that women think feminism is a dirty word. And that there is no need for it any more. You only need to look at the stats for wages/percentage of female bosses/senior politicians/rape convictions/incidence of domestic violence to see that's not so.

In fact I think the lad's mag culture has taken us back several steps. Attitudes to women that would have been verboten in the 80s are now OK or 'ironic'. Back to 'get yourself a sense of humour, love'.

Paula, I don't think feminism was anti-SAHM as such, just anti women having no other choice and no opportunities in the work place (don't forget, until the mid-70s, it was perfectly legal to pay women less than men. And women used to be sacked when they got married!). What's important is that women should be treated as adults, legally, with equal rights to men and free to make choices about their own lives. If you choose to stay at home with the kids, you should be respected for that choice. The system used to sneer at SAHMs -if they dared to get divorced, the man would walk off with all the money because he was the earner. At least that's changed.

I think that we can do a lot for our daughters by living as fulfilling a life as possible, and by all means if that means being a SAHM great. I come from a long line of very strong and sucessful women, most of the women in my family have had families and careers but it is imperative that to achieve this work-life balance they have had supportive partners. Choosing a man who respects you and your desire to live your life as you choose is a vital part of being a feminist imo.

why aren't more women surrendered wives that's what I want to know

Paula, the need for a woman in the white house isn't sexist, it's just redressing the balance. How many presidents are the US on, with no women at all?

I think it's now hard to unite woamen as one group, as women make more individual choices. Just look at the SAHM/WM threads on here.
Women are no longer united in one common goal, due to their wide and differing choices, and that's not a bad thing. Therefore 'feminism' doesn't seem appealingly. What's more likely to be appealing is single issues.

Also personaly I was interested in feminism when younger, but since having boys, I am now more interested in the male experience and perspective. Has this happened to anyione else?

I once had a conversation with someone (who I've since found out is someone who knows MI - six degrees of separation and all that!) and we were saying how we felt sort of betrayed by our upbringing. I was brought up by my school to believe that women could do anything they wanted and was encouraged to study maths and science (my strength). Made it through university, worked really hard at my job then suddenly had the kids and found that it was virtually impossible to have it all. Couldn't manage a full time, demanding job and still maintain a functional relationship with my partner and my children.

Now I don't think now (looking back) that this necessarily has a lot to do with feminism but at the time, I thought feminism was to do with having it all (like men had) and I felt betrayed because I couldn't do what, say, my father had done and had a hugely successful job while maintaining a marriage and children (of course, I now realise he managed this because my mother was in the main a SAHM).

So no, I don't think all the battles have been won at all but I think the word feminism conjures up different images in different people and I agree with tribpot about being able to have a choice.

I was brought up by my sahm to be a feminist.

I can see how some of the more radical ideas of the women's movement seem anachronistic nowadays but we owe the bra-burners a lot imo.

If more women called themselves feminists (and lets face it, we all are really) then it wouldn't carry that sort of baggage with it.

I wouldn't mind being associated with Gloria Steinham though...

"The underlying principle of The Surrendered Wife is simple: The control women wield at work and with children must be left at the front door of any marriage to revitalize intimacy.

Compassionate and practical, The Surrendered Wife is a step-by-step guide that teaches women how to:

Give up unnecessary control and responsibility
Express their needs while also respecting their husband's choices
Resist the temptation to criticize, belittle or dismiss their husbands
Trust their husbands in every aspect of marriage - from sexual to financial...and more.
The Surrendered Wife will show you how to transform a lonely marriage into a passionate union."

Steinham was angry because she was seeing women discriminated against on a daily basis.

I was humiliated daily in school for taking 'boys' subjects.

The discrimination still happens but at a more subtle level. I still teach boys who refuse to take me seriously because I am 'just' a woman. they never make the same mistake twice, but it shows what sort of environment they are growing up in.

Equal pay mught be enshrined in law, but it isn't a fact

Did her husband not run off with another woman though in the end. She must be royally pissed off having done all that surrendering.

You have sons and daughters, you are the teacher, the power is your hands.

[woman who wrote TSW, not GS]

True, but you are battling against 'lad' culture, and it is an uphill struggle on times