Why aren't women feminists? Surely no-one thinks all the battles have been won?

[WideWebWitch]

OK, so I don't have any proper evidence to back this up (so don't post I hear you say, oh well, I bet there is some, so I will!) but I gather that increasingly young women aren't feminists and don't believe there's any need for a feminist movement of any kind. They think all the battles have been won. I know for sure they haven't but WHY do they think this? And why would anyone NOT be a feminist? If you're not, why not? I know this conversation has been had before on mn but I'm still interested.

I agree with Janice Turner about New Woman mag rebranding itself because young women don't like the word 'woman' fgs, this is an example of the sort of thing I mean.

In addition I think that young women are being pressurised by society into becoming sexual beings before they are emotionally ready to cope with it. Girls feel they should be having sex rather than feeling that they want to have sex.

many also feel that this is one of the few ways they can become 'adult' since their aspirations and abitions are so low. So having sex makes them feel important and adult. I think this is a large driving force in the Laddete 'get 'em out for the boys, its only a larf' culture that we are seeing

there are some interesting books out- one I just read but can't remember the name- about the prevalence of 'porn culture'.

This affects both men and women. They have to fit into a culture of display and commodification. YOu're nothing unless you're as scrubbed up, nipped and tucked, and marketable as the boys and girls on screen.

Clearly old style sexism feeds into this since girls undoubtedly suffer more for it. But I shudder for my boys (age 3 and as yet unborn) when I think about the awful emotional aridity of ourmodels for 'cool', powerful men.

I want them to be emotional if they want, even 'weak' if they want. Not to feel intimidated into machismo. But it seems likely they're going to enter a culture of competition over mobile phones, footwear and sexual athletics. Urgh

Agree MB. There is a huge pressure on young girls to be physically grown up before they are mentally grown up.

I dont know how much of a feminist issue it is, but, there certainly seems to be a growing culture of wanting girls to be way ahead of themselves. Then women hit 20 and from then on are persistently/permanently expected to rewind the last 10 years.

Yet boys - the opposite. "Boys Toys" seem to be more and more popular amongst boys all the way through to men, in order to extend or continue their youth it seems.

Is it just me that's got déjà vu? Didn't we have this discussion when Female Chauvinist Pigs came out?

Charlie was it Brian McNairs Striptease Culture?

VVV, and they are also being pressured into being a particular kind of woman the basic bratz/barbie look alike. there is no emphasis on anything other than the physical. the message is given to young girls in particularm you must look like this to be valued, the other aspects of you are unimportant. Not so far from the 'Dolly Bird' of the 60s

monkeytrousers I believe we did. One of my first discussions. I got so wound up on the subject that someone told me I should "parp" myself which I didn't (and still don't entirely) understand.

I seem to remember playboy bunnie merchandise being mentioned...still makes me ....

yes I think I am indeed talking about Female Chauvinist Pigs! Sorry wasn't on MN then, would like to read that thread.

Oh i find bratz repugnant. DD is only 3.9 years but she's heading towards that age. I am pretty vocal in saying how I feel about them in front of her.

As for Bratz Babies.....

But its the clothes too. Off-the-shoulder strappy tops for 2-3 year olds. Shoes with 1 inch heels on from the same age upwards (younger i think in some cases).

I was walking around a primary school today and one of the older children had lipstick on. This is too much, isnt it? I'm not against children playing with make up and playing dress up. But living it is a different thing altogether.

I like your posts Charlieq, will come back to this later. Lazycow, that's interesting, apologies for misrepresenting the research...still, it seemed I prob was right in terms of many women not wanting to be feminists even if I did pick the wrong piece of erm, evidence or a bad example. However, I think it's interesting that 'woman' is seen as an 'older' word (Ok, if it was wrt magazuines and memories of Womans Weekly and Womans Own etc then understandable) and that younger women don't like the term feminist. Is it true that they don't like the word 'women' much either?

How do younger women describe themselves these days? Ladette? Babe?

oh yick WWW, I hope not.

i still find it odd to refer to myself as a 'woman' and i'm 26. i do find 'girl' too young for me, but 'woman' seems not to be me, yet. or something.

Sorry, yes, there are 15 conversations going on here! I was typing v slowly while being interrupted with people asking me SILLY questions!

I agree MP. But, i dont think we can lay the blame solely at the feet of men for that. That was all I was objecting to.

Speaking as a bloke, I see "girlpower" as quite the opposite as "availability for sex". The message it sens me is "I'm only going to bonk blokes that impress me, and you don't measure up mate."
Or perhaps I'm just feeling old and unattractive...

Charlie this was at least one of the Levi threads at the time}

i am shocked daily by little girls and what speed they grow up
I was aghast at a friend of mine - very dear friendiscussing clothes for her daughter to go to a party in and she said ' No Miranda that wont do XXXXXX wants to be sexy'
I drew breath and said listen to yourself

xxxxxxis 10

I hate the term 'girl' being used for grown women. It infantalises us. It's so much easier to not be taken seriously if we are referred to in childish terms.

Consider what would happen in a meeting if you referred to the men as 'boys', it would sound patronising and rude. Yet somehow men get away with doing this all the time, it just shows no respect.

Once in a meeting my twonk of a crap boss suggested the 'girls' would like to do go and sort out the lunch while the others (i.e. men) the others would get on with another ('real work') activity. The women all duely stood up and trotted out and I just stayed put. Boss asked me why I wasn't leaving and I replied that as I hadn't been a girl since I was about 12 I didn't realise he was referring to me. I suggested that if there weren't enough hands to do lunch (because lets face it, laying out a few sandwiches is sooo hard) then maybe one of the more junior male members of staff could lend a hand. Boss went quite a red colour. I was very amused.

WWW - I'm not sure the word woman is seen as massively negative though 'women' maybe more so. I don't think there is a particular word that young women/girls use to refer to themselves (ladette and babe are more media inventions thatn anything else). This along with the negeative view of the word 'women' to me suggests that what is objected to is the idea of grouping women together as a group rather than the word women itself.

The 'individual', 'everyone is different' ethos is incredibly strong among the young - much stronger than when I was young I believe. This I think may have been at the expense of believing in a greater or group good.

Feminism can be seen as believing that there is a greater good that women can achieve by working together. This however requires a common goal and possibly some sublimation of individual needs/desires. Any sublimation of individual need or desire to a greater good is seen as unacceptable thus feminism is just 'too much work'. Also humour is almost a religion among the young to the extent that really quite cruel and unpleasant things are OK as long as they are funny (e.g some of the more grotesque features in zoo and Nuts - which by the way many young girls admit to reading).

They see feminism as humourless so therefore not to be bothered with.

hee hee slug

i have great difficulty with 'Girls - you don't mind me calling you girls, do you?' Saw this not that long ago with David Dickinson on Borgain Hunt. The said 'girls' bridled with pleasure and said 'oooh, certainly not'.

of course, it may be that they cut the take where they said 'f**k off Dickie boy'.

In my career as a designer, was once introduced to customer as "one of our girls who colours in"

I spent 4 years at uni to become designer

Lazycow that's very interesting, that "everyone is different" idea, which masquerades as being a progressive idea but in reality is promoted in a quite reactionary way. They use it to promote the idea that it's invalid to notice that certain social or economic norms impact differently on different groups. Thus complaining about racism or sexism at work is just because you're a chippy individual, not because there is any such thing as real racism or sexism. And if you didn't get promotion, it's because you're not working hard enough, not because there's a glass ceiling. If your DH doesn't do his fair share of housework, it's not because of any ingrained expectation he has which is then backed up by the rest of society, it's because you're a doormat or have too high standards. To reduce everything to an individual "everyone is different" problem, is a very useful fashion for the powerful.

Absolutely Caligula.