Why aren't women feminists? Surely no-one thinks all the battles have been won?

[WideWebWitch]

OK, so I don't have any proper evidence to back this up (so don't post I hear you say, oh well, I bet there is some, so I will!) but I gather that increasingly young women aren't feminists and don't believe there's any need for a feminist movement of any kind. They think all the battles have been won. I know for sure they haven't but WHY do they think this? And why would anyone NOT be a feminist? If you're not, why not? I know this conversation has been had before on mn but I'm still interested.

I agree with Janice Turner about New Woman mag rebranding itself because young women don't like the word 'woman' fgs, this is an example of the sort of thing I mean.

For all the bleating of Fathers Direct et al, and more direct action taken by blokes like Hat's husband, a lot of men are frightfully comfortable with the existing setup. And can you blame them?

I once remember an American of my age saying to me, 'Why did the feminist spoil everything? It was all great before they started'

I still don't know how I restained myself

There is no such thing as positive discrimination. All discrimination is wrong. So there hasn't been a woman in the White House, anymore I don't think its a discrimination thing just a lack of good female canidates.

And just why do you think there has been this lack? Why haven't women been put forward or supported?

Would be nice if the choice were removed in the next election and it was Hillary v Condi, since then it would be policy and not gender that could be debated.

However, I would have died rather than vote for Thatcher, and I'm pretty sure Gloria Steinem (if she did say 'vote Hills cos she is a woman', I haven't found the quote) wouldn't vote Condi over a male Democrat candidate.

Feminism is 'blamed' I think for certain social injustices - like the whole Fathers4Justice thing, for example. I think the word 'feminism' rather than 'anti-sexism' might be part of the problem; anti-racism isn't called minorityism (or summat), it's called civil rights. Taken literally feminism could be supposed to mean 'women are better than men and deserve to take the power' even though I would never interpret it that way.

Really Paula? Do you honestly believe that? That there have been no women presidents because all the women who applied were a bit rubbish? I don't think so! Don't you think sexism must exist, given that women make up half the world and yet there has NEVER been a woman US President and only ONE UK Prime minister? Do you really think it's because women are crap? Don't you think there must be some other explanation, like institutionalised sexism maybe?

Presumably there's a good reason why:

• there's never been a Hispanic president (except on the West Wing)
• there's never been a poor president
• there's never been a Muslim president
• there's never been a Native American president
• there's never been a woman president

I guess only rich white guys (pref Protestant unless JFK) are the only ones who can be arsed running for pres!

Women have been put forward. Nobody has made it out of the primarys yet is all. I myself have been disappointed when one woman in particular didn't run, but it was because I thought she would make a great President not because she was a woman. I think if a good candidate was put up and she happened to be a woman she would get supported. There are plenty of women in both houses. It may not be 50/50 but I doubt it ever will be not because of discrimination but because of choices women hve made.

Because of choices women have made? Like what?

Gotta go, going out but will come back to this. I am really interested in your views Paula, because you won't be the only person with them I'm sure and it helps answer the question in the thread title.

Wait, I'm not saying there wasn't discrimination in the past. Eleanor Roosevelt springs to mind when I think of women who should have been allowed to run. There are lots of women I would have loved to seen run but who didn't.the same goes with people of varying ethnic and religious backgrounds. All I am saying is I don't think it is the case any more. You guys make it sound like I think women are crap, thats just not the case.

i think young girls do want to disassociate themselves with the womens movement, and genuinely believe it is a level playing field - because all they've experienced is the education system. I know so many young women who got a nasty shock when they entered the workplace and discovered the extent to which the system still works for men. Have always been proud to be a feminist and was raised by a feminist.

Well I think if you look at a population, more women stay home than men, so you are always going to have a lesser percentage of women in those roles. Maybe that would change if every woman decided to work or more men chose to stay at home.

What I find so depressing are those semi porn rap videos.

Ok those women may have made the choice to do that, but I find them really offensive, and they are on mainstream tv.

Twig, surrended wives lol. Saw a programme on it once...gobsmacked

Ooh, I forgot to mention there's never been a black president except Morgan Freeman, and he is ace.

Surely Eleanor Roosevelt wasn't prevented from running? (Is quite possible she was, in fact) Society didn't permit it. Much as society still doesn't truly permit equality between the sexes? Or between anyone, if it comes to it; does anyone really think racial equality has been achieved? That the only reason we haven't had a black or Asian prime minister is that no good candidate has been presented? It's just not that simple. I still wouldn't vote for a woman because she was a woman, incidentally.

Look I know there are people out there who are sexist and rascist and elitist, but I feel that these people are in the minority. You do live in a country that has had a female Prime Minister. Whether or not you love or loathe Maggie (I love her) she still got elected even though she was a woman.

And didn't she do such a lot for women? having got there herself she wasn't in the slightest bit interested in helping the situation of other women.

If we have to write things like 'She got there in spite of being a woman' then we still live in a society when gender is an issue. Until no-one thinces twice about it, then we are getting some where

Yes, this is very interesting reading. I remember at school (comprehensive girls school, nice area) really rubbishing feminism as 'anti-men' but I am now a proud feminist. My daughter even has a good feminist name as she is 'Aphra' (after Aphra Behn - all women should lay flowers on the grave of Aphra Behn for it was she who allowed women to speak their minds' Virginia Woolf).

My feminist views have changed somewhat and I am now much more interested in the 'women often ARE different to men and these qualities need to be acknowledged as valid' rather than 'we are all the same and can do all the same things'. I love that thanks to the earlier feminists I can vote for one and have a career (and am now v embarrassed how little I know about these his/herstory-makers) but I personally feel most fulfilled as a Mother and a so called Stay at Home Mum. But as my partner points out (and this view is thanks to feminism or 'anti-sexism'- like this phrase) - just because women are biologically made to have a link with their babies, they do not have a biological link with the hoover. So my partner does most of the cleaning because he is good at it!

For me, we do have a long way to go in validating a typically 'female' response and manner. For example, at my work if frustrated (am a teacher) I would often get so cross I would cry, my (male) colleagues would get so cross they would throw things about and shout. My response seen as weak, their response valid. What is really annoying is how this is so intrinsic that EVEN I sort of see it this way... THIS is what we need to work on. There ARE other issues too, eg Paula gives examples of well paid (male) pilots compared to not so well-paid (female - and gay) cabin crew... so why aren't there more female pilots? Is it to do with ability or something else (working hours, culture...)?

It does annoy me that you cannot claim to be a feminist without people saying oh, sexism, its all a laugh, women have it all now. Its hard to explain that weary tiredness you feel when you see a hilarious, postmodern ad for Yorkie proclaiming 'NOT FOR GIRLS'...

On which basis I assume our first Muslim PM is merely hours from Number 10?! I do take your point - yes, Thatcher was a woman and - whilst it may not please us - that glass ceiling has been broken even if we can't point to a great surge of women candidates as a result. (One might cite the Evita example where one woman is permitted where none may follow).

I also think that if you look at both the Prime Minister's and the President's cabinents you will see a lot of women and racial diversity.

i'm 26. i studied contemporary feminist thought as part of my degree as well as other subjects within women's studies. i did struggle, as did my peers, with several topic areas. on the whole we found our lecturers difficult to relate to. sadly, they did come across as man hating. the majority were lesbian, and we always felt that they thought those of us who were not lesbian were not fully fledged feminists. they wanted us to see men as unnecessary. and i found this difficult. a big topic area was reproduction, including new technologies that wouldn't require male involvement in procreation. it's this sort of experience that puts my generation off.

thatchers cobinet....not exactly littered with women is it?

I do think things are changing on the political front.

Have you heard of Emily's List (this is the UK version ) - it still takes an awesome amount of support and backing to get women into these top political positions though unfortunately

Sorry MartinBishop I was speaking of the current Prime Minister Tony Blair.

The problem with something Like Emily's list is its very liberal. They wouldn't back a woman who was pro-life, or Republican. That alienates alot of people.