Why aren't women feminists? Surely no-one thinks all the battles have been won?

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OK, so I don't have any proper evidence to back this up (so don't post I hear you say, oh well, I bet there is some, so I will!) but I gather that increasingly young women aren't feminists and don't believe there's any need for a feminist movement of any kind. They think all the battles have been won. I know for sure they haven't but WHY do they think this? And why would anyone NOT be a feminist? If you're not, why not? I know this conversation has been had before on mn but I'm still interested.

I agree with Janice Turner about New Woman mag rebranding itself because young women don't like the word 'woman' fgs, this is an example of the sort of thing I mean.

But my point in that Thatcher, who was no feminist, had no interest in helping other women. She'd climbed the greasy pole herself and the last thing she wanted was other women around. She was essentaily 'one of the boys' in drag. She did nothing to change the sexual staus quo

It doesn't matter if she was a feminist, or didn't like other women, she was still elected.

yes but at least some women are getting help - beforehand, it was pretty unheard of. You just did your best and if you didn't have great contacts or a strong enough character, you probably didn't get very far!

Im sad to say that I'm on my way out, although I find this fascinating, hopefully I can pick it up later.

Yes, but she was elected because she was not overtly feminine, she conducted herself like a man would and so did not offend the accepted order of things.

I grew up in a very feminist household and culture, in fact it took me the next 10 years of my adult life to realise and come to terms with the fact that there were men out there who STILL thought it was acceptable for them to ignore washing up etc. More worrying that there were women out there who thought that my choosing career over family was a BAD thing.

Its an odd thing, on the one hand I feel my blood boiling whenever people make comments like "well of course you want to be with Ds, you're his mum" (the implication beign that DH doesn't have the same feelings)
or
"well its different for men isn't it, they don't think like us"
or
"but for every women the pull between home and family is a difficult one"
etc etc

BUT, I rarely if ever describe myself as a feminist. Why? because I actually think its incredibly sexist and divisive, feminism was needed but like all movement which concentrate on one race, gender or group. The way it wins its battles is often by extohling the virtues of its group whilst putting other groups down. So the
"men are so useless" comments etc.

The biggest issues to my mind are these:
1
biologically spekaing we have a stumbling block, women give birth men can't. That sets up a different scenario from the start. And lets be frank, the breast is best, attachment parenting, co sleeping, demand feeding, biddulphs' boys do better at home with their mums message does tend to assume that once a woman has given birth she dammed well gives up her life and stays home with the kiddies for the next five years.

2
Women are denigrated for failing to live up to the feminine stereotype. Sure its okay to have a career but ONLY if you manage to have several children and bake your own cookies as well. If you delegate the caring element to any one else, even the childrens father, you will be seen as less womanly.

3
Men are denigrated for failing to live up to the masculine steretype, so any man who doesn't profess to be ambitous, footie mad and job/mates win out over family/kids is seen as weak or unmanly.

4
All sides of the debate tend to pick one set of skills/choices and say 'these are the best' whether its traditional patriarchal views that aggresion and focus are valued more, or certain feminist views that caring and talking are better.
Why can't we say ALL these attributes and skills are useful and interesting and no-one person is any better or worse simply because of the skills they choose to focus on.

Isn't it amazing, the number of comments along the lines of "I don't see the need to call myself a feminist, but I'm equal to any man." Er... isn't that what being a feminist is all about?

Of course I am a feminist. How DH and I choose to split our earning /household duties doesn't affect that. And yes I think that many, if not most, women do want to find a more equable way of combining family and working life - and so do many men. If the only way we judge the value of women or men is by how much they earn then the only people worth anything would be city traders.

What feminism has given me and women of my generation (I'm in my mid-40s ) is a real choice of career versus childcare. It's not perfect by any means and there's still a long way to go - mainly in society's attitude to men, though. I think, today, men who want to work part time, go to parent and toddler groups, be less macho and ambitious etc have more problems with society's attitude to them than women who want to get to the top of the greasy ladder. Once that's seen as perfectly normal behaviour, then the battles will have been won.

seems that quite a lot of us were brought up and educated in a women-can-have-it-all too environment. and when we had kids we realised it wasn't that simple. however I think the reality - which is slowly dawning on both women and men - is that no-one can have it "all". I think that for many years men came close but they didn;t have many choices in terms of their role in the family. We're all realising that (for us normal folks - male and female) there simply ain't enough hours in the day to have the truly high-flying careers and the close relationship with our children and spouses, time to have a family life. So I think we are moving to a society based more on team work and sharing. I look at dds and I hope that - should they have kids - things have moved on as much as they had done for me, compared with my mum. if they have then I reckon we'll be "there". so I guess that means we're about half-way!

Having lived in Sweden for a number of years, I find myself adrift in UK society, the gap is huge.

"so why aren't there more female pilots?"

I think part of it is that women just do not WANT to do certain jobs. Ex-OH has met several women pilots & there was one on his course when he was training to be one. The one on his course took longer to get a job but that was down to not having 100% first time passes in exams. The only thing that put me off doing it (I know that if I decided to do it I could do just as well as OH) is how much it costs to train & also the randomness of the hours.

My DD currently wants to be a pilot or an accountant, or both apparently (not copying mummy & daddy too much then!!)

I can't remember who but there is a mumsnetter who is a pilot.

did anyone see the programme 'sisters in law' last night here

it's alive and kicking

We have it a whole load better than we used to though...

Oh dear. thats awful.

Fantastic, I love the one about "there is no unhappier being than a homosexual" - obviously not been in any gay club I've frequented in years gone by

Fantastic! lol. "hang down stomach", perfect description of me post c section!

Was bought up to be feminist, sister used to force me to read "Spare Rib" Totally agree with equal rights.

However do think there is a biological difference between men and women, which is why women don't always rise as high as men in career world. In other words I think a lot of women want to be home for children, and would rather invest energy in that rather than career.

Aw I said I was bought up to be ardent feminist, but tbh would much rather be at home with dc, than forging my way ahead in shitty company dominated by stupid competetive males.......although I guess someone would like to do it.

feminism doesn't have to = work outside home though

imo feminism is not just about giving women parity with men outside the home, its about parity for work inside the home. its about seeing both the public and private spheres as worthy of respect.

I think its interesting, if you look at 70s/80s feminist stuff a lot of it concerns mothers. yes theres some stuff on the need for creches so they can work, but there's also the whole idea of the importance of women's histories, traditionally female skills, etc, not to mention wages for housework, calculating female unpaid contributionn to GDP etc. So fighting for respect and so forth for what has traditionally been seen as the private sphere.

yet now, feminism is often seen as synonymous with women in the workplace.

"having it all" is not feminism. its thatcherism.

I have a postcard on my kitchen wall that makes me giggle

"I myself have never managed to work out exactly what feminism is. I only know that I get called a feminist whenever I express sentiments that differentiate me from a doormat"

fantastic....who wrote it?

As a teacher sometimes talk to form group about equal rights and stuff. Work in very high achieving comprehensive, with wealthy parents.....anyhow, in Year 9 found out all girls wanted to be doctors, lawyers etc and to never ever do housework or cooking, or "looking after a man"

All the boys wanted someone to cook and keep house for them .

Was really stunned by this, and couldn't explain it

isn't it rebecca west?

I had a teacher when I was 13 who gave us an impassioned speech about how no girl should aspire to be a secretary, ever.

I think it was his idea of being a feminist.

He was a prick.

Fizzbuzz it is that sort of attitude that might change the demographics of the workplace. However I still think that women will be the main ones to stay home, not because they have to but because they want to. Women just have that bond with their children.

Message withdrawn

lol

feck me I worked as a secretary at uni.

couldn't have got my degree otherwise

secretarial skills are enormously useful.

my god, at my girls grammar school we were taught shorthand !

and touch typing!

this is in 1993

I for one shall make sure my son can touch type. shorthand not bad either.

Fillyjonk, I agree with your post of 21-Jan-07 14:59:45

It is Rebecca West, I like that quote very much.

I very deliberately didn't learn to type when I first started working as I was sure I'd end up being a secretary - I'd heard tales of women who could type being asked to type things for male colleagues even though they weren't employed as secretaries. This was before everyone had PCs and typed their own stuff.