Why aren't women feminists? Surely no-one thinks all the battles have been won?

[WideWebWitch]

OK, so I don't have any proper evidence to back this up (so don't post I hear you say, oh well, I bet there is some, so I will!) but I gather that increasingly young women aren't feminists and don't believe there's any need for a feminist movement of any kind. They think all the battles have been won. I know for sure they haven't but WHY do they think this? And why would anyone NOT be a feminist? If you're not, why not? I know this conversation has been had before on mn but I'm still interested.

I agree with Janice Turner about New Woman mag rebranding itself because young women don't like the word 'woman' fgs, this is an example of the sort of thing I mean.

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Exactly Pruni. It is the poor delusional girls who are conditioned to think that being a glamour model/sleb is a career. That getting breast implants is an empowering career move. That it is all a bit of harmless fun

I was brought up to believe women could do anything they wanted IF they worked hard enough

I did work hard enough I did acheive everything I wanted

I gave it all up to be a SAHM .. because that ALSO is everything I wanted

that's what feminism is about to me .. choices .. and self-belief .. and no victim mentality

Totally agree Twig.

twig and carmenmer....So agree! Shall we set op a 'collective' on MN???? {grin]

So agree with it being so sad that substantial groups of your girls only view themselves in terms of how they look.

Lost count of the numver of 11-12 year olds who come to school in full face make up. Have had cases of girls getting their tits out for the lads. Horrific.

The 'sleb' thing does mu fucking head in. They all tell you they are going to be a 'sleb' or a model or a singer. Not doing anything to get it, mind you, it will all happen like it did to that utter waste of space Jade Goody [fume emoticon needed]

Low aspirations are the bane of my working exsistance.

I totally agree with you Twiglett.

I was also brought up to believe I could achieve whatever I wanted with hard work - and brought up by a totally unambitious (in the career sense) SAHM too. OK, I had an ambitious, more career minded father but despite being a girl I was encouraged to aspire to nothing less than my brothers.

Like Twig - I did work hard, I got tons of qualifications, I was very successful in my work but when it came to children, I gave my career up. The important thing is, I had that choice and I was able to take it.

People don't see it like that though do they? SAHM are largely looked upon as not contributing to society, wasting opportunities etc. That's how it seems to me anyway and it's missing the point.

It's depressing that looking after children - as their mother or as a childminder/nanny/nursery worker or teacher - is so under valued. And poorly paid.

This is interesting. I'm 22 & don't really know that much about feminism in any shape or form - we didn't do anything about it at school.

All I know is that while I don't necessarily consider myself to be a feminist but then am not against it either, I do think women should have the same (or as similar as possible) opportunities to men & that whatever sex you are makes no difference to most things you choose to do (other than the obvious like things either sex aren't physically capable of doing!)

I've never seen the problem with wages. Wherever I've worked I've earned the same as men doing the same job - the only instances I've come accross was where the men were in higher up positions than me or had been there longer, which is fair enough. My friends are all earning wages equal to their male colleagues as well. The trouble with this whole argument is in most cases like for like cases aren't compared - e.g. if a company has lots of women working part time compared to men working full time you can't compare.

Anyway I will shut up & stop waffling now & hope I haven't caused any arguments or sent ppl to sleep!

The issue comes Blondilocks, when men want to work part time. I bet you you don't see a lot of that happening. Have you ever asked yourself why?

I'm proud to call myself a feminist. The feminist movement has been behind the legislation that forces my employees to pay me as much as my male couterparts. That is the reason I can afford to support my family while my husband stays at home with the offspring. It is as much about giving opportunities to men as it is to women.

Actually if you really want to see why feminism is still needed, take a look at the "Why aren't there more women in IT" thread.

I once worked managing a restaurant, one day two weeks before Christmas, I happened to look at the pay roll(it was confidential, but had arrived by fax into the kitchen where anyone could see)I discovered that I was being paid less than my male assistant manager. When they refused to backdate my pay to equal his, I left. Wankers It does happen, we have not achieved equality and we cannot be complacent for the sakes of our daughters!

What concerns me more than mens attitude at times towards women, is some womens attitude. Some inately believe that women arent quite up to the mark.

I also agree with Twiglet about the choice and how you feel about it. For me, I couldnt be a sahm but recongise that you can be a sahm yet still a feminist.

My parents are feminists (if a man can be a feminist). I call myself a feminist and try to counter mysogenist views when I encounter them.

Personally I think that calling yourself or another woman a girl once she is over 18 is ridiculous. I would much rather be called a feminist than a girl.

There is no way that anyone with eyes and ears could imagine that women have acheived equality in the workplace. If you are doing a job you should be paid for the work that you do, not extra because you are a man and not less because you are a woman. I think pay structures should be open and transparent. People should know what their co workers earn.

That was my mother Hercules1. She never forgave me for being more academic than my brother. To her mind it was 'wasted on a woman'.

I also loath the 'He cheated on her with me, but I am a better woman because I have bigger tits and so he will stay faithful to me' attitude that see see in some woman.

am feminist

and SAHM

don't see two as contradictory at all.

no need to break any balls here as dp is, IMO, also a feminist.

find whole anti-feminism thing profoundly depressing, tbh.

also though feel that if a bit more women's (or even just real people's) history was taught in school as opposed to "Great Battles Men Have Fought And Won" it MIGHT all be a lot easier

dunno

think one problem has been that some feminists have actually tacitly or not to tacitly implied that the public sphere is superior to the private sphere and thus denigrated womens work of centuries such as knitting

LOL Martinbishop. That reminds me of my eldest sister who quietly put away a few grand in an investment account in my name just before she got married. Her justification was he's already been divorced once (though he hadn't met her at that point) so who's to say he won't do it again.

Where I work quite a few men do the job-share option, where 2 ppl (often men) work a full time job between them.

Quite a lot of the people I know who are SAHM are because they want to. I think men are probably in a bad position as well, and if both parties wanted to be stay at home parents but only one could I'm sure the woman is more likely to win. I don't know of any women who have been forced to give up work to look after their children.

I think quite a lot of it is women's ideas & perceptions on work. I would never think no I can't do that because I'm a woman. There are things that I wouldn't want to do, like be a builder for example as I wouldn't want to work outside. Likewise I probably wouldn't want to be a full time stay at home mother, even though there's nothing wrong with doing that.

Tribot, thanks for the Clinton quote, I did think it unlikely that Hillary would have made fun of sahms.

Edam, agree that lads culture has been a huge step backwards, absolutely. What do we all think should be done about it? No-one seems to be complaining about it and I find that depressing.

FIS, that's interesting. I too thought women/I could do ANYTHING when I was growing up, ikwym about the upbringing/expectation vs reality thing.

Pruni, agree re sahm/wothm thing and about women who buy in to lads culture. They're being conned royally and the sad thing is that they don't even know it, they truly have bought some pile of shite about it being 'empowering' and 'girl power.'

Twig, no-one's saying feminism disapproves of sahms, I certainly don't think so, I think it's as Edam says, it used to be the only option.

God, if you wanted a career or even a job you had to not get married because you weren't ALLOWED to be married AND work. It wasn't that long ago either.

Blondilocks, hmm, are you sure everyone's being paid the same for work the same or of equal value? The pay gap still exists, it really does. Women ARE being paid less than men, still. Just because they're women, no other reason.

Mimmypig, yes, SAHMs are largely looked upon as not contributing to society, wasting opportunities etc and I don't agree, it's not fair, feminism is about choice, as Edam says.

Yeah, pretty sure. Where I work the pay levels are pretty firm - you start at a low one & if you perform you progress.

The only man I know who earns massively more than female colleagues is a pilot and the women are mainly cabin crew or in ground services - he hasn't met many female pilots so not sure if there are pay gaps there.

I'm sure gaps do exist somewhere, but luckily none that I'm personally aware of.

Edam, I understand that there hasn't been a female President but is still sexist to say that you should vote for someone based on their sex.

Nah, Paula, it's positive discrimination. Which people argue about. But if it's redressing a situation which is so far skewed in favour of those who have held power for the past millenium (or two) then I think there are points in its favour.

Wouldn't convince me to vote for a woman at all costs, though, no. Remember my mother and her friends having this debate about Maggie - left-wing feminists to a woman. Mother decided she just couldn't bring herself to vote Thatcher. Quite right too as the evil old witch did sod-all for women's rights. Pulled up the ladder after her, more like.

I'm a feminist. Dyed in the wool, humourless, the lot. As you'd probably spotted.

Part of the problem, I think, is that feminism is blamed for the fact we still struggle to put together that appalling jigsaw of work/career/relationships/kids/fulfilment. Feminism, surely, is the drive to make that an equal playing field (as the appalling cliche goes) for both men and women. Sexism, and the sexism intrinsic, still, to our society, is the problem. I think.

You can't be humousless. I still remember the 'Do you like plates?' line.

Please work it into THe Thing Which Must Not Be Named, and I will die a happy womban

and as ever I agree with you.