Why aren't women feminists? Surely no-one thinks all the battles have been won?

[WideWebWitch]

OK, so I don't have any proper evidence to back this up (so don't post I hear you say, oh well, I bet there is some, so I will!) but I gather that increasingly young women aren't feminists and don't believe there's any need for a feminist movement of any kind. They think all the battles have been won. I know for sure they haven't but WHY do they think this? And why would anyone NOT be a feminist? If you're not, why not? I know this conversation has been had before on mn but I'm still interested.

I agree with Janice Turner about New Woman mag rebranding itself because young women don't like the word 'woman' fgs, this is an example of the sort of thing I mean.

Ah well,that's ok then eh??
No,the point of whether he did or didn't is irrelevant.
The point is that a grown up woman should be able to fend off a hand on the knee from an old (or even young) man with no further thought,not tell the world about it and drag his name through the mud.

MOONDOG!!!!

I thought I felt the same as you until a colleague (a senior colleague) at my office, whom I had previously flirted with, started to get fresh (that is to say, sexually harrass me). hand lingering on knee too long. standing over me at my desk. etc etc etc.

the shame i felt was extraordinary. i am feisty (polite word for it) at the best of times, but it was the hardest thing in the world to sit down with him and tell him how I felt about what he was doing.

he was a total c*nt for it. and not my boss (which an academic supervisor is...they can make or break you).

I would say that I can't believe how dismissive you are of how awful that kind of situation is, and how hard it is to speak out about it...except that i felt the same way you did, until it happened to me.

Hey, what's wrong with being a ball-breaking dyke? It never did me any harm

I would always call myself a feminist, but don't think it much matters whether young women use that title or another. What does matter is that women understand what we are still up against and try to address it as a social/political problem, rather than their own individual failings (women are so good at this). There is so much pressure on young women these days - to look like models; to achieve academically, professionally and socially; to be sexually active and adventurous but without being 'a slag'; to combine busy working lives with raising children with running a home without nagging, whining or letting any standards slip. And women are still victimised because they are women: through rape, the porn industry, sex trafficking, the pressures to be size 00, the nasty lad mag culture.

I think my dd will have at least as much to deal with as her feminist mother and grandmother did, and I would hate for her to feel it is all her individual problem. Rather, I want her to understand it as society's problem, and ideally to make common cause with other women to do something about it.

That's what feminism is about to me. I couldn't care less whether individual women choose to be SAHM or WOHM, to be secretaries or airline pilots.

I do wish, though, that more women would understand what they are doing when they hurriedly distance themselves from those women who have fought hard for their rights. There's not much social kudos to be gained these days by calling yourself a feminist (god no, that means you must be ugly or frigid or something) but we're really not the enemy.

the way that women are oppressed and ill-treated is also mens' problem. it is a societal problem in the whole sense of the word.

Really?

I have endured my fair share of sexual harassment as have most women I'll wager.
However I really don't see it as a serious crime.
I consider all sexual behaviour to be on a continuum.
You can't say suddenly that this is ok but this isn't.
I think often that by drawing attention to it,one imbues it with an importance it doesn't have.

(I am talking 'Western' style harassement heare of course,not the sort i see daily in Eastern Turkey.)

i think people spend too much time anaysing each other

Some of you have pointed out that you think feminism supports SAHMs. You hardly ever see feminist crying for legislation to help us out.

What kind of legislation do you think would help, Paula?

i imagine most of you are young, you do get to an age where feminism doesn't mean quat. live within your own beliefs and be happy that whats important

Sorry, Southeastastra, but sometimes what is important is not just about me. It's about llving in a world where women are not subjected to sexual violence (including harassment!) as a matter of course, where women are not paid less and less likely to be successful because of their gender, and where young girls have more to aspite to become than a vacuous celebrity with pornstar looks...

hey have you seen my link of 12.22!

Thanks - didn't realise this was you! So we are obviously not totally at odds. I still don't buy the apparent 23.34 argument that it is all about individuals, though...

Good post Hester.I am more troubled about raising my dd than my ds.That is the issue.I feel that despite the tenets of the feminist movement(All good in my opinion,if it encompasses equality) that unless you are earning shedloads you cannot compete on an equal footing with men,in our current socioeconomic climate.

But I am also worried about raising my ds (I don't have a daughter so don't know if that would be worse). I don't know how he is supposed to find a positive masculinity in this society.

Ok Firepile.I take your point.How do we raise our sons to have respect for women and to realise how great women are whilst still enabling them to be "masculine" without being aggressive,ignorant and disrespectful,and having a place in society without feeling alienated?

Southeastastra,I am not moaning about childcare costs per se.I am moaning that the early years care is not seen as important,in this country.If the Scandinavian countries can do it sucessfully then maybe we should use them as a model.We have the worst rates of teen pregnancy,drug abuse,youth crime etc etc.I personally(maybe totally wrongly) see this as a sad indictment upon our society.We have the longest working hours in Europe,supposedly.Surely this says something.

Dunno - its late and ive had a migraine earlier which makes me fuddled.

However, I dont consider myself a feminist. I just am the way I am. I dont give myself a label for it. I know that the way I bring my son and daughter up will be to my expectations and standards, and those are of equality to all and empowerment to all. But DP is the same, so it doesnt make him a feminist as such, does it?

If that makes me sound passive, I can assure you its not. I stand my ground as much as the next 'feminist'. As it happens, next week is my tribunal for unfair (constructive) dismissal and sex discrimination. I feel that I am doing my 'bit' to keep chipping away at establishment.

I think that an acceptance of the fact that there will always be differences between the sexes can often be misconstrued. The very physiological nature of our differences are unchangeable, and as such, I am not sure I would want to meddle with those. Therefore, when it comes to childbearing and childrearing, I think that sometimes, the balance will always be slightly shifted. But, I personally am happy with that. I am happy to have been the one that had the magical experience of growing a baby inside me, I dont think I'd want to swap that for the world. I am happy that there remain some differences. This is a good thing.

If you made any sense of the above - congratulations as I said - ive had a migraine and ive taken co-dydramol

The emphasis very much on the first points for me - about how he will view women. He is still very young, so perhaps I will become more worried about the other points in the future, but I think that similar concerns about boys "losing thier place" in society are often used as a stick to beat feminists with - ie those bad women have taken away men's rights to be themselves - whic makes it hard forme to see the potenital merits in this analysis...

Moondog, I'm shocked that you think harrassment (and it IS harrassment) is not important.

SEA I'm not young, I'm 40 (did you mean the ones who don't think they're feminists?)

Hester good post. I'm scared for my dd.

lol at battles being won and us all being equal

this image kind of says "no" for me

Should we list the battles that have been won and the ones that haven't?

I think some people will be shocked at eg rape not being considered criminal in marriage until 20 years ago.

I have to go to work today but if anyone is tempted...

Oh - it's taken me so long to read the thread that no-one's posting any more!

Here goes my tuppence worth anyway:

I think the reason that young women don't identify with feminism any more is that people don't tend to align themselves with any single ideology any more. You rarely hear anyone identify themselves with an ideology in our post-modern era.

Take the lack of any central ideology of any of the political parties as another example. We have achieved so much, but it is no longer a simple enough issue to identify a coherent ideology that says "I am a feminist". Who knows what that actually means? It could mean "I hate men" or it could mean "I am dissatisfied with female opportunities".

I don't think that this means that women have given up and desire to go back to a pre-feminist era. I hope that with each generation, we move closer towards a political and cultural system that gives equal choices to us all. To do with what we wish - stay at home, working full time or part time.

I think the main arena for real "feminism" at the moment is in achieving a way of combining equal opportunity with a desirable life-work balance. And longer paid maternity, subsidised childcare, flexible working rights and enlightened men are all part of this, because until they exist women will continue to opt out of the public spaces they need to inhabit.

Young women (pre-children) are fewer in number than mothers, but they are more visible at the moment. Their voice is assumed to be 'our' voice, and 'our' voice is only conveyed by the men we send into the workplace from our families.

Firepile, I have some friends who would have loved to be able to stay home with their Children but whos budget just did not stretch enough. The feminist are always asking for childcare benefits. What about benefits for those who stay at home. Just a little extra each month would certainly enable some mothers who want to stay at home to be able to.

I'm too exhausted to be.