If you've given up work outside the home to be with the kids, are you happy with the decision?

[jeangenie]

Has anyone on here given up work to stay at home with the kids, even though it meant a financial struggle? How do you feel about the decision now?

(am considering this at the moment,trying to make myself hold back until I'm certain, but finding it hard to restrain myself this morning for some reason...)

Thanks Twig. TBH, sometimes on Mumsnet you feel that you can't express an opinion without being villified which seems to defy the purpose of the site really. Also, I really try to debate ISSUES as opposed to get involved in PERSONALITY assassination. I'm not perfect, I have many weaknesses and maybe sometimes I do rub people up the wrong way but some people on Mumsnet are just plain nasty and if they feel so insecure and on the attack I wonder why they bother.

But B&WC you have said (unless I am very much mistaken) that you think everyone should contribute to society, and you have said that SAHMs contribute nothing to society, so does it not follow then that you believe that SAHMs are doing something "wrong".

Saadia, you are very much mistaken. Read my posts.

Does someone who contributes to society by paying taxes have more worth than someone who doesn't? because if they have the same worth then it should make no difference if they pay taxes or not .

I'm not going to get into a debate about what makes one person more 'worthy' than another but it absolutely does make a difference whether people pay taxes or not. With no taxes there are no doctors, no teachers, no nurses, no police, no fire officers, no bin men, no NHS, no DHSS etc. Without salaried people (including salaried mums and working dads)who may well themselves be paid through those taxes some of the most vulnerable people in our society would be the SAHMs I mentioned earlier (the teenage mums who have no qualifications, no partner and no experience of employment, the SAHMs who have made no provision for their pensions, the SAHMs who have made no provision for their child's university education). Taxation is what makes this country work and cannot be triviliased. Thank goodness not everybody sees it as optional.

ok then , are they better in some way?

I ask you this because in saying what you have about paying taxes you are making a judgement about those who don't.
It matters to you that people contribute through paying taxes, so you can't just say "each to hhis/her own" when it obviously does make a difference to you whether someone who is able to work to pay taxes does infact do so.

Happy Xmas ladies

this is an emotive thread

basically i think each individual mum makes her choice based on variety of social and demographic factors, and u know what its up to her (and her partner/family/etc)

we should be respecting and supporting other women's choices and consider what is right for one mum is not necessarily right for another

that's my thoughts

The going rate for a dinner lady round here is just over £5 per hr, for 1.25 hrs a day TTO - it works out about £1,000 pa - and you wouldn't be paying any tax on that, so you wouldn't be "contributing to society".

forgot the

So you can go back to work after being a SAHM but you must earn enough to pay taxes .
Quote B&WC Fri 15 19.35hrs
' If you are doing paid work in this country that is legal and you are earning over a certain limit then you are paying taxes. That is contributing to society. '

So a lunch time supervsior . lolly pop lady/man will not earn enough usually to pay tax therfore are not contributing to society.

i have earned a fair bit in my work life and paid more tax then you will likely to do in your part time career. I have also paid one of the highest pension contributions that you can in the public sector , so I am provided for later in life.

I have paid enough tax and contributed enough to society one way or other over the last 20 yrs so I'm having a break and letting someone else do it .

I think I've made my point of view fairly clear Kitty. Taxes matter full stop. I personally feel a responsibility to pay taxes as I feel responsibility to contribute to society (through teaching) and a responsibility to bring up my children in the best way I know how. If you are in a position to do salaried work and choose not to then that's your choice and your business.

Perhaps in my ideal world taxation would allow any woman or man and preferably both together to stay at home with their children all or part of the time for the first 4 years if they chose to and then everybody (men and women) would be allowed to work flexibly around their child-care needs for the benefit of the whole society and their own family (if either and ideally both mum and dad could be with their children when they weren't in school). Taxation would pay for university education and a living pension for all. I know, I'm dreaming ...

FFS, some of you seem desperate to catch me out or somehow get me to say something incredibly controversial. Perhaps you should ask yourselves why. Don't you think that being a lollipop lady or a lunchtime supervisor is fantastically worthwhile? Don't you think that's an incredibly useful contribution to society? I make very sure our lollipop lady is respected by me and dd and she was first on our Christmas present list this year.

mummydear - your last 2 paras in your post of 21.01- me too, apart from the fact that I was in the private sector.

and my dh now pays more in tax pa than a lot of people gross in their annual salary

I'm not trying to 'catch you out' BWC, I'm disagreeing with some of your arguments and countering them

'I have paid enough tax and contributed enough to society one way or other over the last 20 yrs so I'm having a break and letting someone else do it .'

That's fine if that's the way you feel, just remember that that 'someone else' (who is paying taxes which cover your child's education, your GP, your smear test etc) is me and my dp and many millions of other men and women who may or may not have kids.

Not trying to catch you out - A lunch time supervsior / lollypop lady/man is worthwhile but you've said it yourself that unless you earn enough to pay tax then you are not contributing to society.

iota, I don't think you're 'countering my arguments' very successfully if you're trying to tell me that I think a lollipop lady is not contributing to society when I have said many, many times that there are many ways to contribute to society (either by what you physically do to help others or by taxation or both).

Oh FFs B7 W C who do you think helped you through your education and university days . If it was anything after 1984 then it was me !

This was the rest of the quotation you used: 'It is my opinion that all of us unless we have a good reason not to i.e. pre-school children, sickness, can't get a job, can't get a job with child-friendly hours and can't find or afford after-school care etc etc, should be contributing to society either through taxes or some other form of work (volunteer work etc) or both. As I've said that's just my view.'

Thanks for your contribution then Mummydear, it was much appreciated. I mean that genuinely. If you now feel you've done your bit and enjoy your life as a SAHM then as I've said many times, great!

B&W C when you say 'That's fine if that's the way you feel, just remember that that 'someone else' (who is paying taxes which cover your child's education, your GP, your smear test etc) is me and my dp and many millions of other men and women who may or may not have kids. '

I'm sorry to say that a comment like this is laughable - my DH pays his taxes. That is what taxes are for to provide for society. I'm afraid with a comment like that all debate from me has finished.

I'm not getting the joke but goodnight anyway.

...

Only skimmed this thread and haven't got firm views to add. But like twiglett earlier, I have very much enjoyed reading your posts blackandwhitecat and think they are well argued, logical and polite.

There are a few things I've missed in your earlier posts Mummydear like this one:

'Are you afraid of that role [a home-maker]B&W C ?'

Mummydear, I AM a home-maker as is my dp AS WELL as doing paid work. I think you'll find that is so for every other WOHM and dad too.

What does 'home-making' mean? If it means looking after children then as we are at home with the dds during every hour that they are not at school (from 6 am till 8.45 am and from 3.30 pm when we get home until we leave for work and school in the morning), dp and I could not be better parents by giving up paid work and staying at home (since the dds wouldn't be there).

If 'home-making' means keeping a clean and tidy home then dp and I also manage to do this. We fit it around our paid work. We do the usual stuff like washing up every day before or after paid work (it doesn't need doing during the day because we're all at work and school). Dp has started doing all the washing (often with the kids' help -they love pushing dirty clothes through the bars of the banisters onto the hall below and then shoving it in the machine) and ironing when the kids have gone to bed. I do the shopping on the Internet every week (it takes 15 mins max and is delivered a couple of days later. Takes 10 mins to put away usually we all help). We hoover, clean floors etc once a week approx and often the kids help. Maybe we would do a little more cleaning if we stayed at home but I doubt it. Would it improve the quality of our lives if we did? No. Would anyone even notice if we did? No. Would I consider spending any more time cleaning a huge waste of my abilities and desires? Yes (which is not the same as saying anyone else who enjoys spending their time cleaning is wasting time just that I Peronally would consider it a waste of my time).

If home-making means makign sure we all eat properly then we do thta. DP and I take turns making packed lunches for all of us every morning. I cook every weekend and freeze stuff or one of us cooks when we get home. The kids usually love helping with cooking. I'm aware this may change.

If home-making means helping with homework then we both do that and as we're teachers with a fairly good knowledge of the education system we fine this pretty easy and it feeds back into our ability to be good teachers.

If home-making means keeping an attractive hosue then we also manage to do this (in my opinion). It is easy for us to spend money on furniture etc because we have 2 incomes. If I stayed at home then we wouldn't be able to afford to have luxuries like new furniture when we wanted it.

Am I 'afraid' of being a home-maker? What a weird idea. I think I've made it pretty clear that I do what I consider to be a good job of home-making without having to give up my job. I don't know any WOHMs who aren't also good home-makers. Would I want to be a full-time home-maker? Again, I think I've made it pretty clear that I abolutely wouldn't. I've had time off paid work for maternity leave twice, when I went back to work after maternity leave each time I went back 3 days a week and remained at home with the dds for the other 2 days. DP and I have 13 weeks holiday a year (the same as the dds) and we are at home from 3.30 most days and every weekend. I PERSONALLY don't need and wouldn't want any more time at home on my own (since dp would be working and dds would be at school). When I have had long periods of time off I have begun to feel isolated, depressed and not very interesting. THat's just me, if you love being at home, great. I need to teach to feel personally fulfilled, to feel that I am fully using my training,qualifications and skills (yes, I know it takes skills and intelligence to be a mum but i do that too), to be with other adults (yes, i know you can do that as a SAHM), to earn money, to contribute to society etc etc.

I know I am lucky but as I said I didn't just fall into my situation, I planned for it and worked for it. I wanted to teach because I enjoy it, I love my subject and I love trying (and not always succeeding) at getting others to love it too. I like trying (and not always succeeding) to contribute towards others' academic and personal success. I don't love paying taxes because I'm not mad but I feel it's my duty to pay them because I benefit from them. Neither did I JUST HAPPEN to get together with a supportive partner who doesn't see paid work, child-care or housework as gendered activities just as things we all need to do (some of which we might enjoy some we don't). I fell in love with my partner BECAUSE he feels like this while also managing to be a football playing PE teacher,a totally hands-on dad and really funny. We don't have a perfect relationship, sometimes we have terrible arguments but generally it works for us. I totally agree Kitty that my relationship etc is not everyone's ideal. That's fine I never said it had to be.

If you or anyone else wants to be a full time 'home-maker' and that makes make you happy then I am delighted for you. I have never said that anyone SHOULD get a job or should do anything else. I have always said that everyone must find their own way and do what makes them happy. I do not and have nog judged others. I have not said that my way is the right way. There is a very big difference between expressing what you value and what you personally feel to be important and telling others what to do. As I said earlier there are some people who believe we should all play a musical instrument, go to church, water-ski or be aspire to be millionaires. Frankly thinking we all have a responsibiltiy to help others as well as just our families is very far from a terrible value. I'm surprised it causes such controversy and a bit disturbed about some of your attitudes. If you think it a terrible value then that's your prerogative. I never said you had to think like me too.