Why is it OK for dads to work fulltime, but less acceptable for mums to do it?

[hunkermunker]

That's it really. Just pondering it. I work four days a week (three weekdays, one weekend day).

And I've had surprised looks from people that I'm working so much. But I like my job, DS is happy with his grandparents for three days a week and his dad for the other.

And I was just wondering why people don't think it's odd that dads often don't take much time off after their baby's born (two weeks isn't much!) and then work five days a week. Nobody says to DH, "Aw, you must miss your DS" like they do to me - so why is this?

I don't want a debate about WOHM and SAHM - I know there are people who couldn't do whichever one they're not and have read all that before. I just wondered about the mum/dad working thing.

Soapbox, that's only in London and that's only qualified nannies.

Most childcare workers are in nurseries, playgroups or self-employed (childminders) and they really aren't well paid.

Childminders near me charge about £3.50 per hour. Less than a cleaner. And then they have to pay their tax and NI.

Of course many women also fought for the right to work after marriage, let alone children. I think that workplaces should be more flexible, in many cases it would be in their interests.

The most irritating comment for me came from another working mum, who said something along the lines of "isn't it terrible having to work". What annoyed me was the assumption that I would agree with her, without asking me what I thought at all. It's the assumption bit that gets me all the time. For me being at home was both boring and depressing, but I wouldn't assume that to be the case for anyone else. I hope to be able to make a choice about what I do (massive luxury I know), and maybe some day I will want to spend more time at home. Trouble is I'd like to have money and independence too, so I will need to earn a lot more! Certainly term time working seems a lot more appealing now they are at school, partly because schools are incredibly working parent unfriendly.

LOL soapbox - I;m sure you're right that some people do think women are a "herd" - those people should be forced to read MN for a week, that would soon set them right...
baaaaa

Caligula - childminders can look after more than one child at a time1!!!!

If you mind say 3 children at a time, which I think is within OFSTED limits that is £10.50 an hour. That is much more than many people earn. I concede that there are expenses to be deducted from that, but if you look at incremental expenses (i.e. the actual hard cash costs, rather than what is allowable for tax) then these are not considerable!

Nursery nurses may not be paid terribly well - and it baffles me as to why they don't nanny instead!

I work full time and often get asked 'how do you do it?' or comments like 'you're amazing' Well, shock horror I enjoy working and being a mother and I think I can and do both very well. Like other posters I don't do guilt, my kids are well adjusted, well behaved children who I love to pieces. We still have time to do play areas, swimming, parks, endless kids parties and anything else they want to do. The only thing is I am sometimes doing housework at 11pm or not at all. But hey, I don't like housework anyway

Nurseries do seem to pay poorly, but the assistants there are not necessarily trained as fully qualified nannies. Also there seems (at least around us) to be a bit of a glut on the market, possibly related to an increase in Au Pairs. Of course the vast majority of professional childcarers are women, and it probably won't be until that changes that childcare is no longer seen as a fairly exclusively female area (apart from those "strange" men like my dh who actually enjoy spending time with their children!)

Hunker, that's what happened in my case (about the job) - it was the job I wanted to do when I was at school and university, but the reality just didn't suit me as well as I thought it would.

I appreciate the time I've got with ds even more because I don't have to account for every minute of my time (I was a lawyer and generally had to bill every six-minute unit of time), I don't have to pander to stroppy clients, I don't have to stay up late doing work for clients who won't even look at what I've done for weeks, I don't have to wear suits all the time etc etc. Bliss!

And those who have said that WOHM mums make just as many cutting comments about SAHM. I get sooo fed up of hearing about contributing to the economyand careers (yawn) and particularly how bored rigid they would be at home - as if someone who does stay at home must be some sort of simpleton who is happy to dry dishes all day.

As custy said many people don't have the choice. In either direction. I have just started (as of last week) doing one day out of the house. I start at 9 and finish at 4. Get home at 4.20. But that leaves over half an hour when there is no-one to look after ds1. We can't employ somone- there isn't anyone who can look after him-if there was I'd be using them for respite- so my Mum (who workd full time) has to finish early to come and look after him- sometimes she then return to work. To cover half term sha has taken a day off. Without a very tuned in and switched on (and young!- ds1 is physical) mother- my one day outside the home would be impossible. Obviously it can only take place during term times - there is no holiday care available for ds1.

Choice? Eh - what's that?

What am I going to do boo hooo hoo that my career is limited. Nah - I'll just get on with it and take my head out of my arse.

Agree with Fio- we're just mothers. Most mothers I know do a mix of things. Don;t know anyone who works the hours dh works with a full time nanny- equally don't know anyone who stays at home and only plays with the children or stares at the sink. People mix and match around their circumstances.

Oh and sod the taxes argument- as a carer I save the country a fortune in costs - probably more than many workers pay in tax each year.

Fair enough JJ - it's everyone's choice. The main gripe I have with the SAHM friend I was describing (and now I'm making her sound awful but she's quite nice really apart from being very opinionated on other people's behalf) is that whenever I comment about unaffordable childcare, lack of before/afterschool provision, or the fact that a friend of mine can't afford to take more than 3 months maternity leave, she just tuts and says "Well that's the choice she/you have made." in a final, that's the end of that type way. And I'm not even whingeing about it, just commenting. Its just cut off without discussion as if because I have made the inexplicable decision not to be a full time SAHM then I deserve all I get.

wordsmith- my point was that many of us don't have a choice. Even some SAHM don;t have a choice.

just dont discuss it with her wordsmith! if she is a committed SAHM then she is unlikely to sympathise about lack of childcare etc etc etc.

Actually jimjams lots of SAHMs (especially with more than one under 5) do not have a choice. Unless they have family (read, free) childcare they can not afford to work.

Jimjams - exactly. Choice or need - it's no-one's business but our own.

Enid - to be fair, I didn't bring it up. I know better than that!

To go back to the original question, I don't know why dads aren't queried as much as WOHMs about missing their children, missing out on their children or made to feel guilty. It's generally women doing it to other women, I don't see men being hassled about it, so perhaps women just know how to make other vulnerable women feel bad. Or maybe they nag their husbands too to come home earlier, reduce their standard of living, give up holidays, forget about birthdays etc? I dunno.

yes Bozza- I agree- but that choice does come back when the child is of an age where they can come home from school alone, or they can have after school clubs etc. My post wasn't about who has the worst deal, it was about the fact that many people don't have a choice. I was using myself as an example, that's all. And yes if I couldn't afford to pay someone to look after ds3 at home then equally I couldn't do it, but for our family the limit is lack of childcare for ds1 and that will remain until he leaves home.

If you don;t have a choice (whatever the reason) then the arguments about "oooh I need intellectual stimulation" just sound - well boring really, because if you have no choice then they are irrelevent!

Quite agree Wordsmith I don;t care whether other people work or not and I would hope others would be equally uninterested in me!

Maybe I am just impervious to it, but none of my work collegaues or friends have ever made any adverse comments about the fact that I work full time. It is just accepted.

I was quite surprised by one colleague, who about 18 months after I had ds, commented that he didn't think that mothers should work: but to be fair, he had never been at all negative towards me and that was the first I knew of his views (and I worked quite closely with him) - so he was just talking from a personal persepctive (which is his right) - and what he and his dw had done.

I do get comments about how wonderful I am "allowing" dh to have this time not earning (and how long I am going to let this situation continue before putting pressure on him to work) - where I am sure that iif the positions were reversed, he wouldn't get any comments about how great he is for letting me stop work.

You know how when you both work full time it is ususally the woman who does the Housework. shopping. dealing with the childcare, buying the birthday presents, go to birthday parties, cooking and cleaning. Well do you think if the Dad was to stay at home we would finally be able to take a back seat.

I'm sure there are some men who pull their weight but I've yet to hear about them.

My DP was unemployed for about 6 mths and in that time he continued to use the nursery (didn't want to lose the place) and I did not once sit down to a meal cooked for me.

That's the thing I hate about working, doing all the domestic stuff as well as when there is anything child related, like a birthday party, somehow I must have a genetic skill that means I am better suited to it. How many times have I heard 'It will be all mothers there' or 'you know they expect to speak to a mother about this...'

Currently on Maternity leave and must say that is probably the best part of staying at home. At least now I can do the domestic chores at a reasonable pace.

To be fair, my dh does do his share ofthe housework: he would even say he ddoes the majority of it. he does all the hoovering and most of the "bin emptying". He does some dusting and will also clean the bathroom. We'll both clean the kitchen - it just depends on who gets around to it.

I don't feel guilty about the amount that he does, as it is his choice not to have a cleaner Nearly had a divorcce when I arranged for a cleaner, so I had to cancel her after a couple of weeks . Personally, I would much rather that we paid someone else to do it and we could have more quaility time together.

I make the bed in the morning but he gets the breakast stuff. Although I tend to cook in the evenings, that is only because I haven't "shared" that with him. But he will (if that's what I've put down on the weekly menu) make a mean soup - and will cook other stuff if I ask him (we're both good cooks).

He does all the bills. I do most of the wasj=hing and ironing.

So all in all, we do share most of the housework. He thinks he does more than me, as he is more natrually tidy and organised - but I do a lot of the "unseen" stuff, like planning menus, being aware of waht needs stocking up on, doing the shopping (althugh he does also go himslef - but usually with a list from me).

I also refuse to feel guilty if he does do more than me, as it his his choice not to have a cleaner!

I just knew someone was going to have your kind of setup PB. I feel such a mug sometimes. Even now at home on Maternity Leave I feel a pressure to have the house in a reasonable state when he gets home even though I know if the roles were reversed I would be coming home to chaos.

For a while there it was looking like he would be a SAHD but as luck would have it I got an extra few months as a SAHM on Maternity leave.

I wasn't trying to contradict you Eanaey, I was just trying to say that there are some men out there that do do housework. And dh is most definitely not without his faults! I especially hate it when he tells all and sundry that he does all the housework and that I don't do any. . And when he complains that he does "it all" (well, stupid, the solution is simple - let's get a cleaner!).

A also hate it when he calls himself a SAD - he's not: he's supposed to be studying full time - but it has been really useful over the past year, where ds has had split days between nursery and the childminder (who doesn't do pick-ups) that dh was around to do the pick up and drop offs. But I ddo get annoyed when he gets all martyrish: if he had been still working out of the house full time, we would have made other arrangements, used the grandparents more, worked form home more, taken it in turns to be laate/early to/from work etc.

See - it's not all sweetness and light!

Sorry. I think I've gone off on a tangent. I know you weren't contradicting me I worded my reply badly.

Eaney.

I hadn't noticed my typos - he doesn't call himself a SAD dad (although actually, he does suffer from SAD), he calls himself a SAHD!

Plenty of other typos - but that one was really misleading!

hahaha, weird sense of humour time but SAD dad

i agree completely with jimjams as usual, not everyone has a choice and it would be silly and ignorant to think otherwise

as for the anal people, well they are anal whatever they do