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OP posts:
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70
PhilippaGeorgiou · 30/06/2025 21:14

PandoraSocks · 30/06/2025 19:31

I think it would be very difficult to apply new rules to existing claimants and take their cont based ESA away. I think they said the rules would apply to new claims only.

It would be even easier to apply new rules and faster to implement them. I have mentioned this before, but almost all these "rules" are not legislative - they don't require any discussion by parliament, and they cannot be stopped by MP's. In actual fact many of these things float past MP's without them noticing. Changing the assessment criteria for the work related activity group and support group would be very easy; and of course the work related group only lasts for 365 days currently.

I'm not saying this to scare people. I am telling people to be vigilent and keep up the pressure. People are already scared, and with good reason. As we have seen on this site, there is a degree of populism around attacking the disabled. We are seen as an easy target without a strong voice. We cannot depend upon Tory votes (because they hate Labour - just remember they were going to do the same thing) or rebel Labour MP's. We need our own strength.

Just don't trust any of them.

PandoraSocks · 30/06/2025 21:20

As we have seen on this site, there is a degree of populism around attacking the disabled

You are not kidding!

So would the change to ESA (and PIP) be secondary legislation, as in a tweaking of existing regs, rather than primary?

I don't trust this government at all now.

BTW I saw you had something deleted on that other thread, whilst all the ableist rubbish is allowed to stand 😡

OP posts:
PhilippaGeorgiou · 30/06/2025 21:28

PandoraSocks · 30/06/2025 21:20

As we have seen on this site, there is a degree of populism around attacking the disabled

You are not kidding!

So would the change to ESA (and PIP) be secondary legislation, as in a tweaking of existing regs, rather than primary?

I don't trust this government at all now.

BTW I saw you had something deleted on that other thread, whilst all the ableist rubbish is allowed to stand 😡

I hadn't noticed and I simply don't care. It only confirms my opinion about MN.

Yes, some are secondary legislation, but some are effectively codes - things that ministers agree with their departments. I am not sure which are which in respect of current legislation around ESA. I'd need to look as ESA isn't a benefit I am overly familiar with on the detail. I know someone I can ask though.

PhilippaGeorgiou · 30/06/2025 21:30

PS - whatever they deleted I haven't been informed of it. Just checked my email.

PandoraSocks · 30/06/2025 21:33

PhilippaGeorgiou · 30/06/2025 21:30

PS - whatever they deleted I haven't been informed of it. Just checked my email.

I don't think MNHQ tell you about deletions.

Would be interested to know if the changes will need secondary legislation or just a tweak of codes.

PhilippaGeorgiou · 30/06/2025 21:34

This reply has been deleted

References deleted post

PhilippaGeorgiou · 30/06/2025 21:35

PandoraSocks · 30/06/2025 21:33

I don't think MNHQ tell you about deletions.

Would be interested to know if the changes will need secondary legislation or just a tweak of codes.

I'll see if my friend has the details, but he's hard to pin down - busy helping people making PIP and ESA claims - truthfully in his case.

GorgeousSpringtime · 30/06/2025 21:43

PandoraSocks · 30/06/2025 21:09

From the Indy a few minutes ago:

Andy Burnham urges MPs to vote against 'unfair' bill

Andy Burnham urges MPs to vote against Labour’s welfare reforms
Andy Burnham has called on Labour MPs to vote down the government’s welfare reforms as Sir Keir Starmer attempts to stave off a backbench rebellion.

The Mayor of Greater Manchester said the prime minister said the changes to the welfare system will create "unfairness and divide" amongst disabled people.

He also said the prime minister had only performed a “half U-turn” which did not go far enough.

Mr Burnham’s comments will be seen as a direct challenge to the PM and an indication of his possible future leadership ambitions.

What? Half a U Turn? So he only did a J turn? 👀

Sorry, I'll get my coat......... Blush

I wish everyone well, and hope no-one already on it is affected. (And I hope they change their mind about rejecting most future claims too!)

GorgeousSpringtime · 30/06/2025 21:45

PhilippaGeorgiou · 30/06/2025 21:30

PS - whatever they deleted I haven't been informed of it. Just checked my email.

Didn't see anything deleted. 👀

justkeepswimingswiming · 01/07/2025 09:13

Todays the day.

I had a dream last night (thats how much this stupid thing is stressing me out by) they lost the vote & Reeves got sacked… hoping it was more a seeing into the future than a dream.

Orangesandlemons77 · 01/07/2025 09:50

Here is the full text of Rachael Maskell’s reasoned amendment to kill the UC and Pip bill (see 9.08am), which has been signed by 39 Labour MPs.

That this house, whilst noting the need for the reform of the social security system, and agreeing with the government’s principles for providing support to people into work and protecting people who cannot work, declines to give a second reading to the universal credit and personal independent payment bill because its provisions have not been subject to a formal consultation with disabled people, or co-produced with them, or their carers; because the Office for Budget Responsibility is not due to publish its analysis of the employment impact of these reforms until the autumn of 2025; because the majority of the additional employment support funding will not be in place until the end of the decade; because while acknowledging protection for current claimants, the government has yet to produce its own impact assessment on the impact of future claimants of personal independence payment (Pip) and universal credit limited capability for work and related activity and the number of people, including children, who will fall into poverty or experience worsening mental or physical health as a result, nor how many carers will lose carers allowance; because the government has not published an assessment of the impact of these reforms on health or care needs; and because the government is still awaiting the findings of the minister for social security and disability’s review into the assessment for Pip and Sir Charlie Mayfield’s independent review into the role of employers and government in boosting the employment of disabled people and people with long-term health conditions.
The Liberals Democrats, the SNP, the Greens and the Independent Alliance have also tabled their own reasoned amendments against the bill

Labour rebel claims Starmer risks defeat on welfare bill with ‘loads’ of MPs planning to vote against it – UK politics live

Keir Starmer faces the toughest Commons challenge of his premiership this evening when MPs vote on his welfare changes

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2025/jul/01/welfare-bill-vote-labour-conservatives-keir-starmer-universal-credit-pip-uk-politics-latest-news-updates?page=with%3Ablock-68638a8a8f08105b20f22d9a#block-68638a8a8f08105b20f22d9a

OP posts:
MissMogs · 01/07/2025 10:20

That’s less than half what’s needed to stop it, isn’t it? Just awful.

justkeepswimingswiming · 01/07/2025 10:23

38 isnt enough. Its going to go through - fuck sake!
I guess we now have to fight this fuckery through court.

PandoraSocks · 01/07/2025 10:32

The vote will be at 7pm. There is still.a tiny flicker of hope. This is from the Guardian:

This morning Sam Coates, the Sky News deputy political editor, told his Politics at Sam and Anne’s podcast that one of the rebels told him last night that they expected 68 Labour MPs to vote against the bill, with 30/40 abstentions. Coates said 68 votes against, and 30 abstentions, would wipe out Starmer’s majority by one. That was not necessarily the expected outcome, Coates said, because things could change during the day.

And in their London Playbook briefing for Politico, Sam Blewett and Bethany Dawson report on this exchange with a Labour official.

Cool heads are not prevailing: One Labour official texted POLITICO’s Dan Bloom last night: “The heat has clearly gotten to the PLP — who are about to shoot themselves in the head and then attempt to blame the same people who got them elected for blood being everywhere.”

johnworf · 01/07/2025 10:33

justkeepswimingswiming · 01/07/2025 09:13

Todays the day.

I had a dream last night (thats how much this stupid thing is stressing me out by) they lost the vote & Reeves got sacked… hoping it was more a seeing into the future than a dream.

We can but hope this is the real outcome.

MissMogs · 01/07/2025 11:04

Email your MPs. Full inboxes do have an impact. And if your MP isn’t Labour, contact someone in the local party who might be hoping to win the seat at the next election.

PandoraSocks · 01/07/2025 11:07

I e-mailed my Labour MP. Crickets so far!

StrokeCity · 01/07/2025 11:10

I'm in NI, is there any point in me emailing my MLA? Do they get a say in this? Sorry, my politics knowledge is embarrassingly low

StrokeCity · 01/07/2025 11:35

It seems they do indeed get a say, and my local ones are against the cuts

Orangesandlemons77 · 01/07/2025 11:56

B&W site is saying there will be a third reading coming up and some are waiting until then? I'm not keen on that Timms bloke.

www.benefitsandwork.co.uk/news/many-fewer-labour-mps-sign-new-amendment

OP posts:
Orangesandlemons77 · 01/07/2025 12:03

I know, I shouldn't look at such things but there are some unpleasant articles in the press about PIP today such as an 'interactive map' (Daily mail) where people can look up how many in their area are claiming for 'anxiety and depression' also something in the Times going on about people claiming for things like obesity and 'alcohol use disorder' bringing the frothers out - seems all this is just whipping up resentment against PIP etc while failing to mention the reality for many people.

OP posts:
PandoraSocks · 01/07/2025 12:07

God @Orangesandlemons77 that is dreadful. No doubt it will inspire some more threads on MN.

TigerRag · 01/07/2025 12:32

Orangesandlemons77 · 01/07/2025 12:03

I know, I shouldn't look at such things but there are some unpleasant articles in the press about PIP today such as an 'interactive map' (Daily mail) where people can look up how many in their area are claiming for 'anxiety and depression' also something in the Times going on about people claiming for things like obesity and 'alcohol use disorder' bringing the frothers out - seems all this is just whipping up resentment against PIP etc while failing to mention the reality for many people.

I only saw the headline but saw one in the telegraph about people claiming for acne and writers cramp

PhilippaGeorgiou · 01/07/2025 13:40

Sorry the site fell over and missed out the quote when I got back - that reply was @PandoraSocks

Ok - the answer is a bit convoluted. Current legislation includes the criteria and the points awarded against each criteria. That is why this bill was needed - to change the points awarded. However, my friend suggests that this is something of an overkill, since the same result could have been achieved without the bill. It would have been a matter of ease, not even requiring secondary legislation, to tweak the assessment process itself by, for example, changing the evidence required or how evidence is assessed. Secondary legislation covers things like the amounts of money attached to awards...

I will give a practical example of what he means. And at the risk of playing the wrong card, but it's the only way I can explain it so it makes sense... I know one person who definitely lied in their PIP application. He said (amongst other things) that he could not get up stairs at all. I know this because I know him well enough to have been asked to write him a supporting letter, and when I read his form I refused because I knew he was lying (and I told him that too). If there had been a home based assessment, an assessor would have found that he lives in a small back to back terrace with very steep stairs - his bedroom and the bathroom are all on the first floor! So unless he has learned how to levitate...

Introducing new evidential requirements or ways of assessing claims requires nothing more than somebody writing them. To be clear - neither of us are advocating home based assessments (although in the right circumstances some people might find them easier - the process needs to be flexible to meet needs). The point is that they could have achieved the same results by tweaking things that pretty much nobody would have noticed.

That then raises the question as to why they decided to do it this way, which then appears to be the stupidest possible way of doing it (or not doing it, as the case may be). And the only obvious answer is misdirection - but misdirection from what is not clear. The legislation gives headlines and points - it doesn't tell assessors how to arrive at those points.

I don't know if that helps explain it any?

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