Page 8 | Jewish Orthodox Mum Part II AMA

mirah2 · 2023-04-27T16:10:17+00:00

I'm probably letting myself in for it, but here goes... New AMA to mop up any questions that didn't get answered on the first (full) thread. If you're sure (after reading all of that thread) that your question wasn't answered, or have a new question, please post. I probably won't have time to reply until after dinner and kids' bedtime. I am NOT the OP of the original thread. My frame of reference - Modern Orthodox, British (living in UK), convert, mixed race heritage. Fellow Orthodox Jews of Mumsnet - feel free to crowd share answers, but please remember: - this is not the shul kiddush. This is a public internet forum anyone can read - please be sensitive and think about how others (Jewish and not Jewish) might interpret what you say. We sometimes have different working definitions of words within our bubbles so be mindful of that. Go forth and post!

TheShellBeach · 27/04/2023 21:54

dittbtdity · 27/04/2023 21:44

Don't let us keep you.

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Oh thanks. Very friendly.

jewishorthomum · 27/04/2023 21:55

FirstTimeNameChanger · 27/04/2023 21:49

Thank you for this thread. Last night's one has really stayed with me.
I was raised Jewish, reform. My grandparents were survivors and Judaism was so much a part of my childhood, even though we were not that observant. I haven't kept it up. My kids are Jewish in name only, and reading the thread last night really made me reflect on how much of a community and culture I'm no longer a part of. And all of these traditions that I don't personally want to uphold, or feel able to uphold, but equally I want them to continue.

I don't really know what I'm trying to say. I guess that even though your Judaism is not my Judaism I am aware that you women are keeping something going that was important to my father and my grandparents, and I'm glad you are as I'm not able to.

Your post is very touching.
When you're giving over to your kids whatever elements of Judaism you have and know, you are paying respect to your grandparents and you'll be giving your kids a gift that if at any point they do wish to join a Jewish community they should know that they will always be welcomed.

Cinderellasfeatherduster · 27/04/2023 21:56

amcha · 27/04/2023 18:26

@Joevanswell I am not sure if anybody has answered you (even though I think you asked twice on the last thread).
When you say great-great grandmother (maternal line) do you mean it is all completely down the maternal line? If so, prima facie you are Jewish without converting - but warning, most Orthodox institutions will want proof, and the devil can be in the detail in charting that proof - there were a lot of Soviet Jews who came to Israel and who have really struggled with the Bet Din bureaucracy because it is one thing for them to know they are Jewish, but the Betei Din want proof, and documentation that proves it is often very hard to come by. I think sometimes people have gone through a conversion procedure because it is easier than proving their original Jewishness (but if the Bet Din really believe you, and see you are committed to an Orthodox way of life, they may be more than willing to fast track you through that just as an easier way of getting the documentation). You can do a conversion l'chumra (ie go through all the rituals in case you aren't but don't say the blessings in case you are). You would need to talk to a Beit Din about it though - and what should be done.

@amcha this is interesting. We strongly suspect for several reasons that my great grandmother (my mother’s father’s mother) was a German Jew who came to England in the 1910s. Her maiden name, Messer, can be Ashkenazic Jewish. She always denied being Jewish but I wonder whether she denied her faith because of antisemitism having left Germany and seeing what followed. I feel a strong connection to Jewish faith and culture but haven’t explored it because it feels like I’d be treading on the boundaries of cultural appropriation without evidence. Do you have any idea how I might find out whether she was Jewish, and if so, I assume I would be considered Jewish too?

Fink · 27/04/2023 21:56

mirah2 · 27/04/2023 21:50

To be fair, I think a CofE coffee and biscuits would be very tame compared to the average shul kiddush. Unless you also have people elbowing each other out of the way to get the food which is snaffled within the first 10 minutes, chatting loudly at each other, and kids running free underfoot ;)

Kiddushes can range from a few plates of biscuits to hot food (cholent and kugel are favourites). People throw really fancy ones when they have a celebration like a bar mitzvah. If you're really lucky, it can be a first course of lunch. Provided you get to the food table in time.

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It sounds more like a Catholic gathering. The experienced bring their own tupperware to carry leftovers home in 😅(presumably not allowed under the Shabbat no carrying rules, you're missing out!)

chessburger · 27/04/2023 21:57

@EllaDisenchanted I'm a bit confused about the bedika cloth questions and answers. Is it basically a home made sanitary towel? And why would that need to be checked on a semi regular basis?

IloveStrawberrylaces · 27/04/2023 22:00

Cinderellasfeatherduster · 27/04/2023 21:56

@amcha this is interesting. We strongly suspect for several reasons that my great grandmother (my mother’s father’s mother) was a German Jew who came to England in the 1910s. Her maiden name, Messer, can be Ashkenazic Jewish. She always denied being Jewish but I wonder whether she denied her faith because of antisemitism having left Germany and seeing what followed. I feel a strong connection to Jewish faith and culture but haven’t explored it because it feels like I’d be treading on the boundaries of cultural appropriation without evidence. Do you have any idea how I might find out whether she was Jewish, and if so, I assume I would be considered Jewish too?

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Dna testing?

EllaDisenchanted · 27/04/2023 22:00

BreadInCaptivity · 27/04/2023 21:42

I have not read the first thread (I'm going to take a look), so if this question has been asked/answered already then please disregard it.

Having watched the TV programs/documentaries mentioned plus others I'm struck by a sense that the burden of orthodoxy predominantly falls on women.

For example, preparation for Shabbos (and keeping a kosher kitchen more generally), the expectation of being the income earner if a husband takes up religious studies and the restrictions caused by modest dressing.

I appreciate that for many observant women this is a freely made choice but am I correct in my perception of a sex imbalance in the sense of the extra effort expected of females to be observant (frum???) and if so how do orthodox women feel about it?

We are really only presenting the female side of the story. I would say a lot of the obligation falls on men! Putting on tefillin daily, praying with a minyan, the obligation to learn daily (even if you are full time worker like my husband, you are still expected to learn Torah daily). Lots of men get up very early and go to daven (pray) and then learn daf yomi ( a daily gemara study cycle) and then have chavrusas (partner learning sessions) late at night. Plus large families, they have to pitch in.

Regarding the women being the income earner, it is something that is discussed before a woman dates. Does she want to marry someone 'in learning' (i.e. full time Torah learning, not working) or does she want someone who will work? It's seen as an honour and privilege to be a Kollel couple/ family (one where the man is learning) and lots of women choose that life, but it is a choice. I personally knew it wasn't for me, so suggestions that were made to me were only for men that were going to be earning a living.

BestMammyEver · 27/04/2023 22:00

This reply has been deleted

This has been deleted by MNHQ for breaking our Talk Guidelines.

dittbtdity · 27/04/2023 22:00

mirah2 · 27/04/2023 21:50

To be fair, I think a CofE coffee and biscuits would be very tame compared to the average shul kiddush. Unless you also have people elbowing each other out of the way to get the food which is snaffled within the first 10 minutes, chatting loudly at each other, and kids running free underfoot ;)

Kiddushes can range from a few plates of biscuits to hot food (cholent and kugel are favourites). People throw really fancy ones when they have a celebration like a bar mitzvah. If you're really lucky, it can be a first course of lunch. Provided you get to the food table in time.

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Yes, I've never been to a kiddush that wasn't a fight to the death for the excellent food 😁

dittbtdity · 27/04/2023 22:01

TheShellBeach · 27/04/2023 21:54

Oh thanks. Very friendly.

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If you're not feeling the love, move on. Why punish yourself 🙄

TheShellBeach · 27/04/2023 22:02

dittbtdity · 27/04/2023 22:01

If you're not feeling the love, move on. Why punish yourself 🙄

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Why are you being so nasty to me?

FirstTimeNameChanger · 27/04/2023 22:03

jewishorthomum · 27/04/2023 21:55

Your post is very touching.
When you're giving over to your kids whatever elements of Judaism you have and know, you are paying respect to your grandparents and you'll be giving your kids a gift that if at any point they do wish to join a Jewish community they should know that they will always be welcomed.

Show quote history

@jewishorthomum thank you. That had made me quite emotional, and I appreciate your response

EllaDisenchanted · 27/04/2023 22:05

chessburger · 27/04/2023 21:57

@EllaDisenchanted I'm a bit confused about the bedika cloth questions and answers. Is it basically a home made sanitary towel? And why would that need to be checked on a semi regular basis?

No, it is a very thin cloth specially designed for this. On the 7 days post period finishing, we do twice daily internal checks with a cloth to see if there is any spotting or bleeding. If there is any spotting or staining, we would get that checked. It is not something that usually needs frequent checking with a Rabbi, unless there is a gynaecological reason, and if so, provisions can be made (e.g. minimal checks, only one on day 1 and 7 etc).

amcha · 27/04/2023 22:07

BreadInCaptivity · 27/04/2023 21:42

I have not read the first thread (I'm going to take a look), so if this question has been asked/answered already then please disregard it.

Having watched the TV programs/documentaries mentioned plus others I'm struck by a sense that the burden of orthodoxy predominantly falls on women.

For example, preparation for Shabbos (and keeping a kosher kitchen more generally), the expectation of being the income earner if a husband takes up religious studies and the restrictions caused by modest dressing.

I appreciate that for many observant women this is a freely made choice but am I correct in my perception of a sex imbalance in the sense of the extra effort expected of females to be observant (frum???) and if so how do orthodox women feel about it?

I think the opposite - it falls much more on the men. Much easier for my DD than for my DS. The men are much more visible so get the brunt of the anti semitism. The men are the ones expected to be in synagogue three times a day, they are expected to put a lot more into their learning, whether they want to or not (I love learning, but it is my choice, women who aren't so interested do a lot less of it - my DD is much less interested, although she is hoping to go to Sem, the pressure on my DS regarding learning is considerable - even though he is training to be a doctor, he would rate far more in the community if he was in learning). Also the pressure on my DS to learn the whole of his parsha for his barmitzvah, huge performance for a 13 year old, and then give a learned drosha. Yes he got a big party for it, but huge pressure.
And with the modesty stuff - while everybody keeps focusing on what women don't wear - the bottom line is, the fundamental obligation falls on the men - to minimise what they find arousing. That obligation is laid on thick - I read what supposedly normal boys and men out there are doing in terms of pornography, and it is just a such a world away from what is demanded of our boys and men, with the expectation and total demand that they keep away from all of it.
I read with horror, as I imagine so many of you did, the stuff coming out of Everyone's Invited - and having DC in that age group, and just thinking that my DC just don't have to negotiate any of that. Both DC really know all that stuff is completely off limits, the modesty rules put that just beyond the bounds of acceptability. Even those who are a bit rebellious and are not "Shoms" (ie they hug/touch the opposite sex), know that this is transgressive, so just no sexting or pushing because everyone is doing it, or your are prude or whatever you read on Everyone's Invited. Like not touching is the norm, it is what is expected/demanded - it is the default position.

AutisticLegoLover · 27/04/2023 22:07

Possibly a stupid question and if it is I apologise: I was reading about the traditional foods eaten and wondered if any Jewish people are vegetarian or vegan?

I am living these threads and am learning so much. Thank you.

TooManyPlatesInMotion · 27/04/2023 22:09

FirstTimeNameChanger · 27/04/2023 21:49

Thank you for this thread. Last night's one has really stayed with me.
I was raised Jewish, reform. My grandparents were survivors and Judaism was so much a part of my childhood, even though we were not that observant. I haven't kept it up. My kids are Jewish in name only, and reading the thread last night really made me reflect on how much of a community and culture I'm no longer a part of. And all of these traditions that I don't personally want to uphold, or feel able to uphold, but equally I want them to continue.

I don't really know what I'm trying to say. I guess that even though your Judaism is not my Judaism I am aware that you women are keeping something going that was important to my father and my grandparents, and I'm glad you are as I'm not able to.

@FirstTimeNameChanger thanks for sharing this with us. It's very moving.

8state · 27/04/2023 22:11

@amcha and @EllaDisenchanted Thank you so much for your replies about books and music. I did wonder how strict you'd need to be about those things, as they can often contain secular themes. I like fantasy too, but not tried Anne McCaffrey, may give her a go!

Cinderellasfeatherduster · 27/04/2023 22:12

These are such fascinating threads. I wish we could have these discussions IRL. I feel very privileged to have a window into the Orthodox way of life. Thank you to everyone who has responded. We have an Orthodox family locally (we only see them in passing, never socially) and I have often wished I could ask the wife for a coffee and spend an afternoon talking to her. This is almost as good.

AutisticLegoLover · 27/04/2023 22:12

@EllaDisenchanted please could you explain why those checks are made by the women and why does a Rabbi check the cloths? Thank you.

EllaDisenchanted · 27/04/2023 22:13

AutisticLegoLover · 27/04/2023 22:07

Possibly a stupid question and if it is I apologise: I was reading about the traditional foods eaten and wondered if any Jewish people are vegetarian or vegan?

I am living these threads and am learning so much. Thank you.

My orthodox friend is vegetarian, but it isn't very common.

TheShellBeach · 27/04/2023 22:15

Do men and women in the same household share lavatories?
Bearing in mind the worry that blood from the woman's uterus should be kept away from men.

TheGander · 27/04/2023 22:15

I wonder whether some Orthodox Jews are secretly atheistic/ have doubts about the existence of God. And whether maybe that is OK, as long as they are observing all of the culture’s norms and playing their part in perpetuating Jewishness.

amcha · 27/04/2023 22:15

IloveStrawberrylaces · 27/04/2023 22:00

Dna testing?

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No idea. Maybe try a geneologist specialising in Germany (or engage in some geneological study yourself). This is not a Jewish question, it is a geneological question. If you could find synagogue records in which her parents were married etc that would be good evidence - but I don't know what there is left in Germany.

cabbagesandkingsandbeeswax · 27/04/2023 22:16

AutisticLegoLover · 27/04/2023 22:07

Possibly a stupid question and if it is I apologise: I was reading about the traditional foods eaten and wondered if any Jewish people are vegetarian or vegan?

I am living these threads and am learning so much. Thank you.

Loads of Jewish people are vegans/vegetarian/pescatarian. (informal statistics based on my shabbat guests!!!) Actually Israel has (possibly) the highest proportion of vegans in the world. Among Orthodox Jews, it is less likely ime that Chareidi Jews are vegan/vegetarian/pescetarian but pretty common among M.O Jews and there are some M.O Rabbis who promote it.

HalloweenGhost · 27/04/2023 22:17

I first wanted wanted to ask @jewishorthomum on the first thread whether you have many friends if other faiths. Then saw your post about half way in thread 1 about how Jews might feel about non Jews- a bit nervous, because of anti semitism.

Please forgive my naivety, but why wouldn't Jews feel comfortable in their own country? Why would they (you?) imagine people like me (christian) would hold anti semitic views?

Again I imagine I'm being naive so this is why I'm asking, but when I look back at history, didn't we go to war with Hitler because he was a racist, anti-semitic idiot (who was also trying to invade poland)? Does that not give some reassurance that Christians/other non Jews might be on your side? Even if I've got my facts wrong, I don't understand why some people see such a gulf, particularly between Jews and christians - for me as a Christian, the number 1 guy was a jew, and we have the same God, even sharing the old testament. Yes there are loads of traditions that differ, costumes, holy days, and other practices, but I do still see an awful lot in common.

I apologise if this post is offensive, it is intended as anything but.

Can I ask another question, please? If your sons (as an ultra orthodox family) chose to marry for example a Christian, how would you feel? :-)