Jewish Orthodox Mum Part II AMA

[mirah2]

I'm probably letting myself in for it, but here goes...

New AMA to mop up any questions that didn't get answered on the first (full) thread. If you're sure (after reading all of that thread) that your question wasn't answered, or have a new question, please post.

I probably won't have time to reply until after dinner and kids' bedtime.

I am NOT the OP of the original thread. My frame of reference - Modern Orthodox, British (living in UK), convert, mixed race heritage.

Fellow Orthodox Jews of Mumsnet - feel free to crowd share answers, but please remember:

• this is not the shul kiddush. This is a public internet forum anyone can read
• please be sensitive and think about how others (Jewish and not Jewish) might interpret what you say. We sometimes have different working definitions of words within our bubbles so be mindful of that.

Go forth and post!

@mirah2 fascinating. I like to think there is little racism in the Orthodox community but sadly I know too many people who use the yiddish word for black, I don't think they necessarily think it is racist but it sounds awful.

I think in the frum community there are some sheltered people who just don't realise that some things are not ok, like using the word coloured, (it's just inaccurate- we are all coloured! What colour skin are you referring to exactly???) or dressing up as Native Americans on Purim. This might just come from a lack of exposure to media, meanwhile if a black Jewish family moved into town they would welcome them with open arms.

The answer to all your questions largely depends on the community one is part of. I'm part of the ultra orthodox community, but not Chasiddic and I do wear makeup daily. I will wear natural nail polish, such as nude or french. Pierced ears are no problem. I wear subtle earings. Although for some reason multiple peircings are not accepted in my circles, I'm unsure why.

Alcolhol in moderation is fine. Judaism is all about balance. Most enjoyments of the world are allowed, at the right time in the right place.
Smoking & Alcohol: We are commanded to protect and look after our bodies, so smoking and drinking excessively would be a transgression of that. In moderation is totally fine.

Most Jews waiting between 5+ to 6 full hours. Yekishe (German) custom is to wait only 3.

For us personally - we do generally make the same thing for Friday night - wine, chala, chicken soup, chicken (maybe a change of vegetable - peas, beans, okra) potatoes, rice, then fruit for dessert, maybe some baked goods for dessert as well (or baklava - note I don't make - only buy). Remember everything has to be cooked before the sabbath starts and just warmed after that. For shabbat lunch we are unusual in not having cholent (although there often is in synagogue) - part of that has to do with DH being Edot haMizrach, so he prefers a more rice based dish (called hamim), and also the rules regarding warming are a bit easier following the Sephardi psak, so we tend to warm more chicken, rice. Often though my DH gets so much food at kiddush after shul that he is not hungry (one of the differences between Ashenazi kiddushim and Sephardi/Edot HaMizrach kiddushim, is that mostly the Ashkenazi kiddushim have biscults and crisps and the like, while the Sephardi kiddushim are always hamim - ie rice and chicken and other meal type dishes - lots of vegetables). DH always goes to shul. I go some weeks (used to go more often but got out of the habit during the pandemic). I prefer to go to an Ashkenazi shul, as that is how I was raised, while DH prefers an Edot HaMitzrach shul (as that is how he was raised). Our DC are comfortable with both, and tend to go where their friends are (now they are old enough to make their own choices). In the afternoon we usually have a nap, and if a long Shabbat - well there are a group of women who usually got to one of the women's houses - sometimes up to four or five of us, just for a chat and a social. We all have older DC, and it is just nice - just for an hour or two before Shabbat goes out.

Yes make up. Nail varnish - some people will only wear subtle colours, some none at all, some anyting goes. Pierced ears - yes - lots of chassidic people peirce baby girls ears at birth. Only ears though, and one peircing only - second or nose peircings will get you funny looks outside of Modern Orthodox circles.

In general conservative style jewellery.

I don't think religious Jews have a massively storng drinking culture except on certain days like purim. Smoking should be against the Torah imo but some people (men usually, women it would be frowned upon) smoke.

I fully agree with this. Thank you @cabbagesandkingsandbeeswax
It does boil down to a lack of education. And a massive apology on my end to what I now know is a very derogatory term. I really did not mean it that way and agree that a Jewish black family would be very welcome in the community.

@JeweyJew No restrictions for orthodox male jews on joining a predominately female forum and interacting with women then?

@Flapjacker48 yes, what would attract an orthodox Jewish man to a female centric parenting website?

I would say that minhag Anglia (the English custom) - is 3 where we are, which is what we do. DH once asked a rabbi about this, because the thinks his DF changed to 3 from 6 when he came to England - and he wondered if this was authentic ,as most middle eastern Jews wait 6. The Rabbi said that there are some Sephardi Jews who wait 3, just not very many, and that it was fine for him to continue waiting 3. I was waiting 3 before that - and in fact a cousin of mine in America said that his family in Lita (Lithuania) waited 3, but when they got to America after the war (he was on a Sugihara visa), they were told that everybody waited 6 there (certainly in the charedi community in which he moved), and he changed.

Are there any medical aspects ie rules/procedures which would be declined?

Sorry if this is a silly question but this is fascinating so thank you for the thread

Because, strictly speaking, as an orthodox Jewish male, you're not really supposed to be seeking out women to chat to - unless it's in your line of work or similar social interactions we all have to do like phoning a call centre or whatever.

Do you just drink black tea or coffee, then?
I wold hate to wait for three hours after my dinner before having a cup of tea.

Do men learn how to please women sexually? As in, classes before marriage etc?

I have not read the first thread (I'm going to take a look), so if this question has been asked/answered already then please disregard it.

Having watched the TV programs/documentaries mentioned plus others I'm struck by a sense that the burden of orthodoxy predominantly falls on women.

For example, preparation for Shabbos (and keeping a kosher kitchen more generally), the expectation of being the income earner if a husband takes up religious studies and the restrictions caused by modest dressing.

I appreciate that for many observant women this is a freely made choice but am I correct in my perception of a sex imbalance in the sense of the extra effort expected of females to be observant (frum???) and if so how do orthodox women feel about it?

Yup, my husband did. Since he wasn't exposed to much media and had no sexual experience before marriage. He had to be taught.

Don't let us keep you.

If I had to wait 6 hours before drinking (white) coffee I think I'd just go vegetarian. I pretty much live on coffee (and cheese). 😄

Thanks for the perspective on racism, very interesting and honest.

Single piercings in ears (as. in one earring per ear) - norm. Make up and nail varnish - as ever, it varies. The further along the orthodox spectrum you get (i.e. more chareidi), the more makeup/ nail varnish, red nails in particular would be frowned on, so heavy makeup, bright lips, heavy eyes would be out (so they would maybe wear just foundation and blush). In my circles, full face of makeup, all colours of nail varnish, getting gels etc, super normal, but it's individual choice if you want to wear makeup/ nails etc. Some orthodox (yeshivish) women can be very 'done' and put together.

Piercings beyond single earrings also varies according to where you are on the spectrum. So modern orthodox you'll see nose studs and multiple piercings in ears, you'll definitely not see any of that in very yeshivish chareidi circles.

Smoking - that's an interesting one. One of the commandments in the Torah is that you should guard your health. Once the dangers of smoking were understood, smoking should really fall unto the category of totally going against Jewish values. Unfortunately, however, despite work to make changes there are still some holdover chareidi communities in Israel where a new groom gives out cigarettes, or they are given out on Purim.

I think getting tipsy is not viewed particularly differently to how it is viewed outside of the community?

Yes, 3 hours. My Dad waits 5 hours and 1 minute (into the 6th hour). It makes you think before you nick a bite of someone else's deli sandwich!

Thank you for this thread. Last night's one has really stayed with me.
I was raised Jewish, reform. My grandparents were survivors and Judaism was so much a part of my childhood, even though we were not that observant. I haven't kept it up. My kids are Jewish in name only, and reading the thread last night really made me reflect on how much of a community and culture I'm no longer a part of. And all of these traditions that I don't personally want to uphold, or feel able to uphold, but equally I want them to continue.

I don't really know what I'm trying to say. I guess that even though your Judaism is not my Judaism I am aware that you women are keeping something going that was important to my father and my grandparents, and I'm glad you are as I'm not able to.

To be fair, I think a CofE coffee and biscuits would be very tame compared to the average shul kiddush. Unless you also have people elbowing each other out of the way to get the food which is snaffled within the first 10 minutes, chatting loudly at each other, and kids running free underfoot ;)

Kiddushes can range from a few plates of biscuits to hot food (cholent and kugel are favourites). People throw really fancy ones when they have a celebration like a bar mitzvah. If you're really lucky, it can be a first course of lunch. Provided you get to the food table in time.

So do I - therefore I generally only like to have a meat meal for the last meal of the day - when I don't want coffee as it will interfere with sleep.

I have another question: how does Judaism view practices which were done by the patriarchs but not anymore (e.g. polygamy, slavery)? Is there guidance about why some things have changed since the Torah but not others? We have a teaching on this in Catholicism and I'm interested to know if there's anything similar in the Talmud or amongst modern authorities.

Sorry if someone got there first.

The truth is, we don't spend a lot of time thinking about it.

We have Olam Haba, the world to come. There is definitely a concept of reward and punishment i.e. your actions in this world will be awarded in the next. And there are rituals we do to remember deceased relatives. But most Orthodox Jews don't spend a lot of mental energy thinking beyond the basics. It's not a key part of our theology. The emphasis is very much on living a good life in this world.