Jewish Orthodox Mum Part II AMA

[mirah2]

I'm probably letting myself in for it, but here goes...

New AMA to mop up any questions that didn't get answered on the first (full) thread. If you're sure (after reading all of that thread) that your question wasn't answered, or have a new question, please post.

I probably won't have time to reply until after dinner and kids' bedtime.

I am NOT the OP of the original thread. My frame of reference - Modern Orthodox, British (living in UK), convert, mixed race heritage.

Fellow Orthodox Jews of Mumsnet - feel free to crowd share answers, but please remember:

• this is not the shul kiddush. This is a public internet forum anyone can read
• please be sensitive and think about how others (Jewish and not Jewish) might interpret what you say. We sometimes have different working definitions of words within our bubbles so be mindful of that.

Go forth and post!

Thanks to all those who've explained how Christianity works. Its been very educational, and that is what this is all about.

The milky and meaty separation means that we have separate pots, crockery, countertops, 2 sinks, 2 ovens etc. The purpose is to avoid contact between milk and meaty food.
If say I were to mistakenly mix my hot meaty soup with a milky spoon I would set the spoon and the pot aside to be kashered. Kashered means, to make it Kosher again. This is usually done by submerging it fully in boiling water.
The laws often get complex so for any questions you'd consult a Rabbi.

Just to say that the question of images/Catholicism/idolatry is an internal legal issue within Judaism. No knowledgeable Jewish person believes that Catholic people are going to be punished for their beliefs on earth or in any sort of afterlife, nor would we encourage Catholics to convert to Judaism.

FWIW, I don't think the issue is just graven images - it's also the hierarchy of people acting as some sort of intercessor - priests, saints, BVM, etc. Neither Jews not Muslims have this idea. There is just the divine and humans. Note that some extreme Chassidic groups do venerate their leaders (alive and dead) and are regularly accused of idolatry by their opponents.

Hi, am late to the thread, but have lost several hours reading it from the beginning. Would like to echo all the posters thanking the ops and those other Jewish ladies taking the time to answer all the questions - it's been fascinating, and I've learned loads. Also good to see so much respect, even where there are differences of opinion. I have to say, as an atheist but from a culturally Christian background I had no idea that Christianity was not seen as fully monotheistic by Jews or Muslims. It's an interesting debate and I can see the argument, though the water analogy was also really useful.

I have, like many other posters, been fascinated by Jewish culture for a long time, and I think this is enhanced by it seeming so private to the community and also having few contacts with Jewish people where I live. I think it started as a teenager when I read a series of books I found in the library by a Jewish author, all about an extended Jewish family in Manchester, starting from their arrival in the 1900s from Russia and continuing all the way through to the 1990s. I think the author was Maisie Mosco, don't know if anyone else read these? I found them absolutely fascinating with all the descriptions of traditions and conflicts.

I have a couple of questions - I understand the matrilineal laws of Jewish descent which mean if you have unbroken matrilineal descent you are considered Jewish even if you embrace none of the beliefs and lifestyle. On the other hand converting to Judaism is really challenging and you have to be exceptionally committed. I get the impression most converts adhere strictly to the laws and lifestyle - but if someone underwent the full conversion process but then became much more lax and ceased to observe the laws or lead a fully Jewish life, would they still be considered Jewish by others?

Also, I watched Love, Faith and marriage about the young orthodox couple struggling to conceive. I also wondered about the niddah period and if this can impact in people with short cycles/ early ovulation but they didn't mention this - I wondered if this is widely known about as a potential issue? Also, they said they had been trying to conceive for 30 months, so well beyond the point they would be reasonable in seeking medical investigations - are Orthodox Jews less likely to seek intervention for infertility/ more likely to wait longer?

@celestebellman Once someone converts to Judaism they are considered fully Jewish, even if they later aren't as observant.

I haven't seen Love, faith and marriage so I don't know that couples story. As soon as a couple realises that they may be dealing with fertility issues they would reach out to one of their Rabbi or to one of the fertility organisations in the community.
I don't think Orthodox Jews are less likely to seek intervention for infertility or more likely to wait longer. If anything, they might feel more urgency, as the value of family life and kids is so central to Judaism.

Regarding conversion and the validity of it, does this differ across different branches? I know a man in my city who wanted to convert and he went to the synagogue to speak to the rabbi. He basically told him it was a faff and that his children wouldn't be considered Jews until second generation after someone converted (or maybe it was they couldn't get married to Jews until after 2nd gen?). Anyway, he ended up converting to Islam instead.
I also saw on some SH blogs that any Jews behaving badly "must have had a grandparent that was a convert", but I don't know if that is a widespread belief or not?

Orthodox Jews will only accept an Orthodox conversion as valid. Other branches I believe will accept any conversion, but I could be wrong.
Sorry, what is SH? I have never heard anyone say that badly behaving Jews must have had a grandparent who was a convert. I would definitely not say that is widespread.

@EllaDisenchanted sorry SH is Stamford Hill. I follow several bloggers from there. Not sure if this is a rogue idea or a belief that is specific to a particular branch. Those who are of BT heritage are also spoken equally bad about!

Thanks - that's interesting, seems there are different views on conversion, had not even considered implications for future generations.

Do girls in the orthodox community have a bat mitzvah generally, or is that more of a reform/ liberal thing? How do those in traditional communities with large families, if they have lots of boys manage preparing them all/ funding all the bar mitzvahs?

Mad busy today, so answers going to be super brief (well as brief as I get):

@sadienurse2
Stamford Hill, I can't speak for their views, but that doesn't align at all with what I was taught. View where I am from is big respect for BT/ converts. Keeping the laws is challenging enough for people who grew up with them. For people who have chosen to return it is much harder, as they have lived without restrictions and then made the decision to take on the Torah, which is really impressive. There are a lot of BTs in the community I am in, (including quite a few older generations of my family), so maybe that's why I've not come across this, I don't know.
Whether they come across attitudes like you mentioned- I don't know, but it is always possible. There are always people with bigoted attitudes in every society.

@celestebellman Yes, girls have a Bat Mitzva in Orthodox circles, but it is more of a party. Some schools do a Bat Mitzva program in year 7, which I really like. Bar Mitzva's range in size/cost. With all the gemachs available, it is possible to do them at a lower cost. I have a lot of brothers, and each did different amounts of the Torah reading, according to what was right for them. By the last few my Mum had it down to a fine art. Also, friends and family pitch in to help.

That story made me laugh slightly. It sounds like someone shopping at a pick and mix religion counter. ‘What, my children won’t be fully accepted as Jewish for generations? Ok, Islam here I come!’

@celestebellman Almonds and Raisins!! I loved that series of books as a lot was familiar to me coming from a Jewish family in my father’s side, also in Manchester. However our relationship to the religion was very diluted although my grandparents were active in their local Reform Shul and were big on donations to places such as the establishment of the Jewish Museum in Berlin, my grandparents’ home city.

One last point. I’d like to apologise for the crudeness of my name on these threads. I hope the observant women can brush over them . I certainly don’t mean any offence , unless it’s to Rees Mogg, as that is who my name refers to. And this is probably the one and only time I will apologise for this name on Mumsnet 😀

Just popping in to say thanks to whoever it was who recommended this. I found it quite moving. I hope Saul and Shoshi either overcome the fertility issues or can find happiness if that doesn't work put for them. I did wonder briefly if Shoshi was on this thread, she is very intelligent and articulate in explaining her faith.

www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/m001l674/love-faith-and-me-series-1-5-the-highs-and-lows-of-a-kosher-marriage

@HoofWankingSpangleCunt yes that's the series - I read all of them, think I was mildly obsessed. Never met anyone else who has read them though, that's interesting that as someone with a Jewish connection you also enjoyed them. I suspected the author was basing a lot on members of her own extended family and maybe herself (particularly one of the characters who was a writer). I learned loads from them in terms of history as well as Jewish culture even though I don't think they were exactly great literature.

I think this is very disappointing.

Yes, this also made me smile!

As I've said upthread, converts are meant to be fully accepted within the community post-conversion - there are some slight nuances, but the only generational issue is really to do with marriage to a Kohen (who have a lot of other marriage rules to deal with too).

Unfortunately a lot of Jews pick up inaccurate ideas about things because they haven't studied them properly - this includes ideas about converts. Some bits of the community are also more insular than others.

Again, I say this as a convert who (hopefully) knows her stuff

Curious how comments about Christianity being idolatry don’t trigger the talk guidelines?

Correction: it did.

Thanks so much for these fascinating threads. I have a question about the milk and meat separation. Are the different utensils etc for convenience or something you have to have? Eg girls I went to school with had some family members with two dishwashers. That obviously requires a fair amount of money and space. Is it seen as ‘better’ to have more separation or would it be seen as just as ‘correct’ but more hassle, to have one set and use lots of boiling water?

Also - sitting shiva for mourning. I have heard that sometimes sitting shiva is done for something other than death (eg for a family member marrying out or losing faith/converting). Does that happen? And if so is it required or optional?

Reposting because I think this has been overlooked due to my lengthy post on other subjects:

Am I right in thinking that the congregation (is that the right word?) can choose their own Rabbi rather than being assigned a Rabbi by a higher body? What is the process? How does it work?

Lots of people have talked about Shabbas food but that seems to be focussed on Friday night. Is Saturday leftovers day? What sort of things can you cook/not cook/eat/have that fit in with the no work/no turning on the oven type of restrictions?

@AspidistraFlying @mirah2 our Muslim friends thought it was very funny too!

I have made a thread in AMA for anyone who wants to ask questions about Christianity so as not to derail this one.
Here

I think that this thread has (maybe unwittingly) confirmed a lot of misconceptions (or perhaps now, conceptions?).

I was not aware that some men cross the road to avoid women, etc. Or that the religious parts of ceremonies like the Queen’s funeral and upcoming Coronation would be muted. Quite shocking, for me, to have these insights.

Each individual can choose their own Rabbis. The Rabbi is seen as a mentor to help guide us in observing the Torah. There are many Rabbi's in every community and you choose the Rabbi that you personally align with or connect with.
So for us, me and my husband have a Rabbi who we ask our halachic questions, such as meat/milk or nidda questions because he is very knowledgeable in the laws of the Torah.
We have another Rabbi who has great insight and outlook of life, he's also an expert on interpersonal relationships. We'd give him a call if we wanted to ask a more philosophical question, eg if we are looking for advice on our kids upbringing etc.

On Shabbos there are 3 meals. Friday night, Shabbos lunch, and tea time meal had just before dusk on Saturday.
What people serve at the meals is personal and varied but I'll list what the traditional Jewish meal would serve:

Traditionally, Friday night is a variation of: Challah, Fish starter, Chicken soup and then a main of chicken/meat and potatoes.
Shabbos day: Challah, Egg dip, chopped liver dip, Cholent (Slow cooked stew of meat, potatoes, beans, barley)
3rd Meal: Fish, salads, and anything really.

Rabbis - each congregation chooses their own. Often with politics! Some umbrella organisations like the United Synagogue set out the procedures for appointing a Rabbi, but the final decision is always with each congregation. Usually at least one Rabbi visits and spends time with the community before a vote is taken.

Shabbat lunch is also a special meal. We can hear up food (not just leftovers - we usually cook fresh food on Thursday night or Friday or take food from the freezer). This is usually on a hot plate or other form of heating device on a preset timer - back in the day, people would leave a gas fire on overnight under a sheet of metal or have food cooking in a communal oven.

There are limits on what can be heated up - we are not allowed to 'cook' as such, so everything must be edible before Shabbat and there are different customs on heating liquids. Many eat a slow-cooked stew (cholent or hamin) which can be left on a low heat overnight or, back in the day, in a communal oven. Hot water is kept in a urn that is boiled before Shabbat and left on a constant heat.

I Can see AMA now suddenly awash with threads from every single religion out there.