Jewish Orthodox Mum Part II AMA

[mirah2]

I'm probably letting myself in for it, but here goes...

New AMA to mop up any questions that didn't get answered on the first (full) thread. If you're sure (after reading all of that thread) that your question wasn't answered, or have a new question, please post.

I probably won't have time to reply until after dinner and kids' bedtime.

I am NOT the OP of the original thread. My frame of reference - Modern Orthodox, British (living in UK), convert, mixed race heritage.

Fellow Orthodox Jews of Mumsnet - feel free to crowd share answers, but please remember:

• this is not the shul kiddush. This is a public internet forum anyone can read
• please be sensitive and think about how others (Jewish and not Jewish) might interpret what you say. We sometimes have different working definitions of words within our bubbles so be mindful of that.

Go forth and post!

I’ll preface this by saying I’m a practising Christian, so I have skin in the game. But I confess I find the church ruling a bit…sad, I suppose. I have visited a synagogue and a Hindu temple, and found both fascinating. I don’t share the faiths, but it was a privilege to go and see how others worship and learn more about their beliefs. I feel it’s also respectful as part of living in multi-cultural Britain to do that. I suppose being really honest, I’m just saddened that your faith prevents you from doing the same. I would love to be able to show you a church and explain the faith - obviously I know you don’t believe any of it, but that’s not the point, it’s about growing in understanding of one another? I’ve had a lot of my own misconceptions corrected on this thread (I previously thought the concept of Niddah was quite patriarchal and viewed women as lesser to men, and now I understand that’s not the case at all). And that learning from each other can only be a good thing, in terms of encouraging tolerance and understanding across faiths?

IIRC Hoop Lane is a cemetery, not a crematorium.

And yes, no problem with non-Jews coming to synagogue :)

I'm sorry it's difficult to hear. I'm actually wondering if it's worth digging out my shiur notes after bedtime to make sure I'm giving correct info.

Very quickly - history plays a role. Jews were persecuted and forced to convert by Christians for centuries and I'm pretty sure this plays a role in rulings about churches. But there is also a theological issue with the Trinity that doesn't exist in Islam. But like I said, I don't want to go into more detail without checking I am giving right info.

Do any of you give presents and put up a tree at Christmas time?

I agree with you, @Tygertiger . I've been made to feel most welcome in a synagogue, Hindu temple and a mosque. It would be nice to welcome others to churches in the same spirit.

I don't think any Orthdox Jews would. Some less affiliated Jews might, especially those with intermarried families. Often saying it is not a religious holiday etc. (a few threads on this already here I am sure)

We have enough holidays of our own tbh! I love 25th december, nothing to do. No cooking! Best day ever.

Yes, @mirah2 , but does it matter if your children hear about the Trinity? Surely you can just tell them that others have different beliefs? I don't understand why they can't hear a prayer.

@cabbagesandkingsandbeeswax why don't you cook on 25th December?

I have often pariticipated in interfaith events.

I apologise if people are hurt that Orthodox Jews won't enter churches. As @mirah2 points out there is a lot of awful, bloody history of persecution of Jews by Christians and this probably plays a part although i always thought it was to do with belief in the trinity.

of course we can cook, but I don't have to make a big meal with turkey or wtvr. I know quite traditional Jews who do and I am baffled why they want the extra faff.

Unless it is shabbat and then we have to cook.

I don't care if Jews won't enter churches but I do care when I am told unequivocally that my religion is idolatry.
You must see that that is an offensive comment?

Yes, but Jewish people have different beliefs and it doesn't stop Christians going into synagogues? They don't refuse because you don't believe in Jesus?
However, I can understand a reluctance because of the history of persecution and forced conversions. It must have terrible associations.

@Tumbays
A little later on in the chapter after"You should love your neighbours as yourself" it says "Treat the strangers who reside among you as citizens, and love them as yourselves, for you were strangers in the land of Egypt".
This is referring to even those who you may consider as strangers ie. those with foreign faiths or those whom you don't have much in common with, they too must be treated well.

So yes Jewish people will always have a special connection and kinship with each other. That is how we have survived all these years, despite all the persecution and hostility. But there is never also never an excuse to disrespect others, Jewish or not.

that comment was deleted so not sure what was said.

But I assume this halachic decision was made based on knowledge of Christian theology.

Yes, I reported it.
The poster said that Christianity was idolatry.

Looks like our suspicions were right - whoever that was, was a PBP............. guess who?

I didn't see the deleted comment, but if it's the same poster as on the first thread, he gave a very inaccurate characterisation of Christianity there. I would differentiate between this poster (who seems to have an extremely poor grasp of the actual teachings of Christianity) and the Jewish halacha, which I would like to think was made based on a better understanding. If the Jewish ladies on this thread say they can't enter (some denominations') churches, that's not necessarily for the reasons given by the PBP.

I will have a go at explaining (although don't know if I will do so brilliantly). The Trinity is identified (eg by Tosfot, the Rema) with the term "shituf" - which literally means partnership. The view of Tosfot, which is widely followed, is that shituf is a forbidden belief for Jews, but is permitted for non-Jews. That is, Jews are forbidden to believe in shituf, and must treat it like idolatry for themselves, but do not regard non-Jews who follow it as idolators. This, by the way, has practical ramifications - a Jew is forbidden to go into a business partnership with an idolator, so if we regarded Christians as idolators, then most of the business Jews are involved in in England could not happen. It is fair to say that Jews are more comfortable with the monothism of Muslims, however, and mosques are completely fine.
There is also a view out there (although it is probably, to be fair, a minority view), that Jews can go into churches if they go in with cameras around their necks or other signs that they are obviously tourists - ie to see, not to participate. People we know have, for example, gone to see the Sistene Chapel on that basis - on the grounds that when some of the world's finest artwork is there, you kind of want to be able to see it in real life (if you are an art expert).
BTW though, part of the reality of being a minority in country where the dominant religion is Christianity, is that you do end up teaching your DC about it - unless they are really very, very sheltered. If you read the standard reading books (Biff & Chip or whatever), you inevitably come across Christian references that have to be explained to your DC, otherwise they won't understand. They will see nativity scenes, and Christmas lights, and Santa Clause in shopping centres, and a lot of it will need explaining (including which bits are part of the religion and which bit are more commercial add ons). It is possible to shelter DC from this, but very difficult (my Rabbi when I was growing up up once said that he had a friend over from a more sheltered community, and it happened to be December 24th, and he said to the friend, don't hit any raindeer driving home, and his friend looked at him blankly, which he found extraordinary, but it clearly happens). However the reality is that I have ended up having to tell my DC various Christian stories (ie New Testament) so they could make sense of what they were seeing or reading or hearing out there, or understand various references, in a way that I have much more rarely had to teach them anything about Muslims (even though there are a lot of hijabs on the streets in our area now, and I have had to explain a little bit about that).
Also just to add on the persecution aspect - it was standard practice across Europe to force Jews to assemble in the churches several times as year so they could be forceably preached to. It was not regarded as one of the things that one should give up one's life rather than do (as opposed to actually converting), but it certainly left a historic memory that is not good.

Indeed not.
Whoever that poster is, he or she seems determined to stoke dissent on this thread.
Very disappointing behaviour.

That’s a really helpful (and respectful) response @amcha

Can I ask if Jews would have a problem going into a church building at all, or just for a service? (Or would it depend on the level of orthodoxy? (for want of a better phrase)) I’m thinking of things like village fetes, or toddler groups, or charity events which just happen to take place in a church building, but aren’t actually church services. Our church is used by many different groups locally including quite a number of Muslim groups from the refugee/asylum seeker community. It’s very much a shared space, albeit owned and managed by the church, and is used for everything from fundraising events, community meals, dance groups, coffee mornings etc. Would something like that be forbidden for Jews?

I do think it varies - but I do know many people who are comfortable (or their rabbis are comfortable) using/allowing use of a church hall in those kinds of circumstances - particularly where it is not where services are held. The question has come up, probably most often in relation to voting - as many church halls are used, I think here also, but particularly in the US, for voting. Generally I believe when there is a clear and known purpose (like voting on election day), Jews go.
And here is one from my own family. DS was involved in helping with the Covid vaccination drive, and they were vaccinating in - I am pretty sure it was Westminster Abbey (although I would have to check with DS). He was rather tickled that engaging in a life saving activity like vaccination meant that he could go and (effectively) legitimately have a look around. He did say it was surreal doing this in such an environment. He probably could have refused to go, and I think others might have done so in the circumstances, or tried to get themselves rostered on somewhere different (DS does push the boundaries a bit some times), but still.

I am a Catholic and so as I understand it we are viewed as idol worshipers? Speaking personally I don’t think that’s a true description of Catholicism and is also quite a derisory term - whilst I assume you don’t intend to hurt it kind of has that effect and it is somewhat disrespectful to describe people this way and shows a lack of understanding of others beliefs which I would not want to show to you.

Anyway …

i have taken my children to see the places of worship of very many religions and feel it’s important that they understand other peoples religions. I work somewhere which is probably over 95% Muslim so I also have experience of being very much the minority religion.

why would you turn down the volume to stop your children hearing a Christian prayer how would it harm them? and why would growing up around Christian’s make you more sensitive to this?

Yay!
I see you've made it to Classics!

And so has the other thread!

I've been catching up on the posts from today (I don't have to stay offline on Sundays like the Jewish Sabbath, but there's so much on at church that I don't have time for anything else!) and I noticed a couple of Christians posted that these threads had helped them to see lots of similarities that they hadn't known about between Judaism and Christianity. I've found the opposite, actually: I've discovered far more differences that I hadn't known about. It's been fascinating.

So, I wondered whether there were a podcast or similar of the Bible/Tanakh from a Jewish perspective? I would be very interested to listen and find out more about how Orthodox Jews interpret our common scriptures. I listen to a podcast called the Bible in a Year (although I've done the whole cycle of a year twice already and am going round again), which is a daily scripture passage with commentary from a Catholic priest. Is there anything similar from a Jewish perspective?