Page 25 | Jewish Orthodox Mum Part II AMA

mirah2 · 2023-04-27T16:10:17+00:00

I'm probably letting myself in for it, but here goes... New AMA to mop up any questions that didn't get answered on the first (full) thread. If you're sure (after reading all of that thread) that your question wasn't answered, or have a new question, please post. I probably won't have time to reply until after dinner and kids' bedtime. I am NOT the OP of the original thread. My frame of reference - Modern Orthodox, British (living in UK), convert, mixed race heritage. Fellow Orthodox Jews of Mumsnet - feel free to crowd share answers, but please remember: - this is not the shul kiddush. This is a public internet forum anyone can read - please be sensitive and think about how others (Jewish and not Jewish) might interpret what you say. We sometimes have different working definitions of words within our bubbles so be mindful of that. Go forth and post!

amcha · 30/04/2023 00:11

Fink · 30/04/2023 00:07

Thank you. So how do Jewish people know the story of the origins of Hannukah? Is there a different source for it, or is it just told by oral tradition? I know that it's considered a minor festival (because it's not in the Torah?), but is it still considered to have been instituted by God in some way, albeit not directly?

Show quote history

Oral tradition, plus it is in the gemara and in the halacha books and an extra bit is describing what happened included in the prayers and grace after meals during chanukah. Schools make a bit fuss of it. But it is very much at the level of - the Greeks tried to stop us keeping our religion and took over the temple. Judah HaMaccabee and his brothers rose up and lead a revolt. They won, the Greeks lost, when they came to clean the temple, they only found one flask of oil for the menorah that had not been contaminated by the Greeks, it should have only burnt for one day, but miraculously it burnt for eight days until they were able to make more oil.

jewishorthomum · 30/04/2023 00:12

Athinker · 29/04/2023 23:42

For a man like that to blame millions and millions of innocent men, women, children and babies for their own murder - to say that they brought it on themselves by being insufficiently religious, in their narrow interpretation of it - it was and remains one of the worst things anyone has ever said to my face. Apart from anything else, he effectively exonerated Hitler and the Nazis and everyone who carried out the Holocaust.

Isn't the whole outrage with what that man told you somewhat intellectually dishonest? I mean if you believe in a just God it follows perforce that He allowed the Holocaust to happen for a reason. Not that people can necessarily know God's reasons, but to say there was no rhyme or reason is to basically either completely deny the existence of God or at the very least to deny His justice.

It's a sad reality that often good intellectual questions are quashed because the subject is distasteful to some. I think as long as you're not being specifically and gratuitously offensive to anyone, no question should be off limits.

From what I understand the Jewish way is to question and debate everything?

Not that people can necessarily know God's reasons
You answered the question in your post: People can don't know God's reasons.

Ortiguilla · 30/04/2023 00:13

danceyourselfdizzy1 · 28/04/2023 15:35

@Ortiguilla Thanks for your response, that's just awful. I've seen some people - quite recently actually and definitely non-Jews - who accuse Jews (or Zionists which seems to be their preferred term but it's clear who they mean) of being in collusion with Nazis in the 1930s. So it seems like a similar argument.

I am a Jew to my core. I'm the daughter of a Kohain and my mum is also the daughter of a Kohain - my bloodline on both sides reaches directly back to the priests in Aaron's temple.

I realise you might not get this now until after tomorrow, but just one quick question - I'm assuming this is the same as the name 'Cohen' meaning Priest, and so do people with that surname have a different or higher significance to other Jews than non-Kohain/Cohen families? So for instance would it be easier for someone called Cohen to become a rabbi? I'm sure I've asked some friends this before but can't remember the answer! And apologies to others on the thread if this has been covered already!

Hi @danceyourselfdizzy1

Yes, sadly I think there are parallels there (re your first point).

Re the Kohain thing. My family are Kohains (caste) but almost no one in the extended family is called Cohen as a name.

Also,it has no connection as far as I am aware to being a rabbi today. Most rabbis aren't Kohains and vice versa.

There are special rules about not being in the presence of a dead body (for example), which means that the majority of my male relatives (on both mum and dad's sides) have to go into another room during funeral services etc. my cousin once told me that they get special sandwiches there and I believed him for years 😄

You can also tell a Kohain grave because instead of a magen David (star of David) it will usually have the symbol of two hands with fingers spread. This is the same sign that Leonard Nimoy copied for Spock. He saw it in synagogue!

Fink · 30/04/2023 00:14

Fink · 30/04/2023 00:07

Thank you. So how do Jewish people know the story of the origins of Hannukah? Is there a different source for it, or is it just told by oral tradition? I know that it's considered a minor festival (because it's not in the Torah?), but is it still considered to have been instituted by God in some way, albeit not directly?

Show quote history

They don't know what they're missing out on, by the way - even if you don't believe it to have been divinely inspired, Maccabees has some brilliant stories of Jewish history, really fascinating and a lively read!

wonderkid · 30/04/2023 00:15

@mirah2 @EllaDisenchanted
In your answers above regarding the name Kohen, you both mentioned something about how they, if a Rabbi, have to avoid contact with the dead. What does this mean?

amcha · 30/04/2023 00:21

Fink · 30/04/2023 00:14

They don't know what they're missing out on, by the way - even if you don't believe it to have been divinely inspired, Maccabees has some brilliant stories of Jewish history, really fascinating and a lively read!

Show quote history

I agree, but the Maccabean dynesty (Hasmoneans), although they were kohanim (so entitled to the priesthood in the temple) decided they wanted to be king too, and took over the kingship, putting them at odds with the Rabbis and the Rabbinical tradition, there was a very difficult relationship between the two in the later generations, and it is not clear that their actions vis a vis Rome were good (the Hasmoneans basically invited them in). Not really something that most Orthodox people are interested in, or want to spend a lot of time on when there is so much other Jewish history to learn (this is a small part of thousands of years of history)

TheShellBeach · 30/04/2023 00:24

Do girls in Jewish schools get taught about the menstrual cycle?
If not, is it left to their mothers to inform and advise them?

Actually, do boys learn this? I was assuming that they would not be, but perhaps I am wrong.

Ortiguilla · 30/04/2023 00:24

Athinker · 29/04/2023 23:42

For a man like that to blame millions and millions of innocent men, women, children and babies for their own murder - to say that they brought it on themselves by being insufficiently religious, in their narrow interpretation of it - it was and remains one of the worst things anyone has ever said to my face. Apart from anything else, he effectively exonerated Hitler and the Nazis and everyone who carried out the Holocaust.

Isn't the whole outrage with what that man told you somewhat intellectually dishonest? I mean if you believe in a just God it follows perforce that He allowed the Holocaust to happen for a reason. Not that people can necessarily know God's reasons, but to say there was no rhyme or reason is to basically either completely deny the existence of God or at the very least to deny His justice.

It's a sad reality that often good intellectual questions are quashed because the subject is distasteful to some. I think as long as you're not being specifically and gratuitously offensive to anyone, no question should be off limits.

From what I understand the Jewish way is to question and debate everything?

I don't believe in a just G-d. The Holocaust is one reason for that. Not the only one.

Nothing anyone can say is going to convince me that what happened to the Jews in ww2 was 'justice'.

I can assure you that that man was being specifically and gratuitously offensive.

That conversation happened in 1996 and remains one of the worst things anyone has ever said to me.

There is no intellectual dishonesty in my response here.

TheShellBeach · 30/04/2023 00:25

Is contraception permitted for Jewish people?
Are there particular branches of Judaism who would use contraception, and others which definitely wouldn't?

If a woman was told that becoming pregnant would be dangerous for her, is she then allowed to use contraception?

Athinker · 30/04/2023 00:39

Ortiguilla · 30/04/2023 00:24

I don't believe in a just G-d. The Holocaust is one reason for that. Not the only one.

Nothing anyone can say is going to convince me that what happened to the Jews in ww2 was 'justice'.

I can assure you that that man was being specifically and gratuitously offensive.

That conversation happened in 1996 and remains one of the worst things anyone has ever said to me.

There is no intellectual dishonesty in my response here.

Show quote history

So there you. That's the real difference between you and that man.

He believes in a just God, and according to his beliefs there was nothing offensive in what he said.

You don't believe in a just God (do you believe in God at all) so...actually, while typing this I've realised your outrage doesn't make sense at all. If you don't believe God orchestrated the Holocaust, or you don't in believe in God at all, how can you find the belief that God did it for a reason offensive? It's a bit circular.

amcha · 30/04/2023 00:39

TheShellBeach · 30/04/2023 00:24

Do girls in Jewish schools get taught about the menstrual cycle?
If not, is it left to their mothers to inform and advise them?

Actually, do boys learn this? I was assuming that they would not be, but perhaps I am wrong.

Schools differ - but certainly my DD was in school in Year 6 (although I had talked to her before they did it there) - and they took her and the other girls to see a mikvah. My DS, because he went to a school that taught GCSE Biology, learnt what about it as part of a Biology lesson in Year 8 - whatever was on the GCSE curriculum, in a very clinical way (the GCSE required them to label internal female body parts, but they tried to keep it to isolated female body parts, so I am not sure if he quite got how they fitted into the female). But of course, what DH didn't know, he was taught in his chatan classes (the classes before he got married). I think somebody mentioned on here, but a bride gets classes one on one with a kala teacher (female), and a groom gets classes one on one with a chatan teacher (male) - and this is where you are taught the laws regarding nida and mikvah etc, and also a bit of sex education (and there are people working on making that aspect of the education better, and certifying people and giving them better training, because there have been concerns that it is patchy and not always well done). There is a lot of unease in the community, at all levels, about the Government mandates on this - as it feels way to early for most of ours. The time it is needed is just before the couple get married, with the chatan/kala teachers keeping in touch for post marriage support/advice where required. I really do think it is very, very rare for members of our community, even the more modern Orthodox community, and all the more so the yeshivishe or chassidic communities, to be sexually active. They need to know that something is wrong in case somebody pushes them (but the rules of no touching and modesty signal pretty clearly when something is wrong long before you get very far). They need proper sex education, sensitively given, just before they get married, and when it works well, that is what they get from their kala or chatan teacher.

Bergmum · 30/04/2023 00:43

Here in Stamford Hill the boys wouldn't be taught about the female menstrual cycle. Some of the girls schools would teach it in a very superficial way but it's mostly left to the mums.
Contraception is definitely used and if a doctor were to tell someone that it would be dangerous to become pregnant they may seek a second opinion but would be obligated to refrain from becoming pregnant.

amcha · 30/04/2023 00:45

I mean prior to marriage, obviously - or at the very least post high school. Sometimes at university (those who go) or post high school age there are pressures and people may lapse in their religious observance and some of that may be related to sexual behaviours, but they are just kept far enough apart that I don't think it happens much at all, making sex education in primary and high school just not relevant and the wrong time.

jewishorthomum · 30/04/2023 00:46

There is a Torah commandment roughly translated " You should procreate".

A Jewish man has the commandment to have both a male and female baby in order to fulfill "You should procreate". Therefore until one has both a girl and a boy, contraception is usually held off.
Obviously if a woman's life would be at risk by becoming pregnant, or if she's struggling with her mental health, contraception would be permitted.

In general, the more ultra orthodox will be more particular and stringent with keeping to this and the more modern orthodox would be more lenient.
I know some ultra orthodox Chassidic Jewish ladies who won't go on birth control at all unless the mother's life is at risk. As a result some have 10+ kids.

However nowadays most streams are of the opinion that once they have 2 children, a boy and a girl, contraception is not an issue.

jewishorthomum · 30/04/2023 00:47

jewishorthomum · 30/04/2023 00:46

There is a Torah commandment roughly translated " You should procreate".

A Jewish man has the commandment to have both a male and female baby in order to fulfill "You should procreate". Therefore until one has both a girl and a boy, contraception is usually held off.
Obviously if a woman's life would be at risk by becoming pregnant, or if she's struggling with her mental health, contraception would be permitted.

In general, the more ultra orthodox will be more particular and stringent with keeping to this and the more modern orthodox would be more lenient.
I know some ultra orthodox Chassidic Jewish ladies who won't go on birth control at all unless the mother's life is at risk. As a result some have 10+ kids.

However nowadays most streams are of the opinion that once they have 2 children, a boy and a girl, contraception is not an issue.

@TheShellBeach

TheShellBeach · 30/04/2023 00:51

jewishorthomum · 30/04/2023 00:47

@TheShellBeach

Show quote history

Thank you - that's very interesting.
I have certainly delivered the ninth and tenth babies of several Jewish women.

I've come across women who have had twelve babies, too.
This is similar to fundamental Christian couples, too. When I was a student midwife there was a woman who lived on one of the Hebridean islands who had her seventeenth pregnancy while I was training.

TheShellBeach · 30/04/2023 00:51

And of course, many Muslim women also have very large families.

Dontcareforthehaters · 30/04/2023 00:57

My mother is Jewish and although I am aware of my Jewish heritage, I'm pretty clueless.

I would like to ask about adoption in Orthodox Jewish communities. I am curious about if this is done and how it is perceived.

AliceOlive · 30/04/2023 00:58

Thank you for answering my question @mirah2 Your lunch sounds wonderful.

I am in US and my neighbors across the street are Orthodox. They have a house full right now and always do have family and friends for meals either Friday or Saturday evening. It always makes me happy and a bit envious. The community and family relationships they have is amazing. (And they do make us welcome, in fact I’ve never felt so much a part of a neighborhood as I do here.)

We’ve become friends with several of our Orthodox and Reform neighbors and I do notice some differences. I’m always learning more but never as much as I have from these threads. I really appreciate it because I want to learn and they are very open, but I don’t want to ask them a million questions.

jewishorthomum · 30/04/2023 01:11

Dontcareforthehaters · 30/04/2023 00:57

My mother is Jewish and although I am aware of my Jewish heritage, I'm pretty clueless.

I would like to ask about adoption in Orthodox Jewish communities. I am curious about if this is done and how it is perceived.

Adoption and fostering is done and accepted in the Jewish community as in any.
I know of a couple who adopted a 4 year old girl a few years back. They made a kiddush (party) and invited everyone from the community to join in to celebrate her homecoming.

howdoesyourgardengrowinmay · 30/04/2023 03:51

amcha · 30/04/2023 00:11

Oral tradition, plus it is in the gemara and in the halacha books and an extra bit is describing what happened included in the prayers and grace after meals during chanukah. Schools make a bit fuss of it. But it is very much at the level of - the Greeks tried to stop us keeping our religion and took over the temple. Judah HaMaccabee and his brothers rose up and lead a revolt. They won, the Greeks lost, when they came to clean the temple, they only found one flask of oil for the menorah that had not been contaminated by the Greeks, it should have only burnt for one day, but miraculously it burnt for eight days until they were able to make more oil.

Show quote history

Let's eat!

EllaDisenchanted · 30/04/2023 06:32

jewishorthomum · 30/04/2023 00:46

There is a Torah commandment roughly translated " You should procreate".

A Jewish man has the commandment to have both a male and female baby in order to fulfill "You should procreate". Therefore until one has both a girl and a boy, contraception is usually held off.
Obviously if a woman's life would be at risk by becoming pregnant, or if she's struggling with her mental health, contraception would be permitted.

In general, the more ultra orthodox will be more particular and stringent with keeping to this and the more modern orthodox would be more lenient.
I know some ultra orthodox Chassidic Jewish ladies who won't go on birth control at all unless the mother's life is at risk. As a result some have 10+ kids.

However nowadays most streams are of the opinion that once they have 2 children, a boy and a girl, contraception is not an issue.

I think there’s been quite a bit of change even recently in thinking in this area . A married kollel couple I know very intimately were advised to use contraception for the first year of marriage to give them a chance to get to know each other without the strain of pregnancy.
mental health makes a difference too. I get ante and post natal depression and despite my first few children being the same sex, there was no issue with using contraception.

EllaDisenchanted · 30/04/2023 06:34

jewishorthomum · 30/04/2023 01:11

Adoption and fostering is done and accepted in the Jewish community as in any.
I know of a couple who adopted a 4 year old girl a few years back. They made a kiddush (party) and invited everyone from the community to join in to celebrate her homecoming.

Show quote history

Similar experiences. We make a kiddish (party) to celebrate the birth of a girl (or any celebration really) and I also know of couples who have adopted (various ages) and when it has gone through they’ve made a kiddish and they’ve had huge turnout. People are genuinely very excited and happy for them.
it’s seen very positively

EllaDisenchanted · 30/04/2023 06:54

Athinker · 30/04/2023 00:39

So there you. That's the real difference between you and that man.

He believes in a just God, and according to his beliefs there was nothing offensive in what he said.

You don't believe in a just God (do you believe in God at all) so...actually, while typing this I've realised your outrage doesn't make sense at all. If you don't believe God orchestrated the Holocaust, or you don't in believe in God at all, how can you find the belief that God did it for a reason offensive? It's a bit circular.

Show quote history

Yes the Jewish way is to question and debate. However this man wasn’t questioning or debating , he was blaming. I do believe G-d is absolutely just and loving. I believe He has a plan and that everything happens, happens for a reason , even if the thing that happens is tragic and painful and seems so bad, He has a reason and only after 120, when we die, will we see the full picture. A common analogy is that it is like we are seeing the back of a tapestry at the moment, and it looks messy and horrible, but we’ll see the other side after we pass away and then have clarity .
I don’t believe we can always know the reasons for why terrible things happen. For someone to blame someone else’s practice and observance for the holocaust is grossly offensive and hurtful- I said it earlier in a comment, the Jewish way is not to judge others; how can he possibly judge a whole generation and believe the holocaust was divine retribution for their actions ? Who is he to say that?
Chabad sum it up far better than I can https://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/404608/jewish/Was-the-Holocaust-a-Punishment.htm

also just because G-d has a plan that doesn’t let the nazis off the hook. They are still responsible for their actions , they chose to be the instrument through which this happened, and how it happened.

Cinnamonandcoal · 30/04/2023 07:07

Just to say thank you to those answering all the questions on this thread and also to all the other posters for keeping it polite and respectful.

I'm Jewish myself (brought up Masorti) and my husband converted when we got married - although through a Liberal synagogue so according to Orthodox Jews he wouldn't be seen as Jewish. I do have family members who are very orthodox and we're friendly but don't see a lot of each other. Personally I have a strong Jewish identity but am also an atheist.

A great uncle of mine married a non Jewish woman and never told his parents he'd married 'out' because he knew how upset they would be. This was a religious family but not extremely, they were quite integrated and for example speak were musicians in a pop band. They couple moved to a different city, had kids who never met their grandparents. This was 60s/70s. Only when the grandparents died were they introduced to the rest of the family and my mum met these cousins for the first time. It's always seemed so sad to me.

My question to the orthodox Jews on the thread: how literally do you believe Bereshit/the creation story in the Torah. Do you believe in human evolution and what are your children taught?