Jewish Orthodox Mum Part II AMA

[mirah2]

I'm probably letting myself in for it, but here goes...

New AMA to mop up any questions that didn't get answered on the first (full) thread. If you're sure (after reading all of that thread) that your question wasn't answered, or have a new question, please post.

I probably won't have time to reply until after dinner and kids' bedtime.

I am NOT the OP of the original thread. My frame of reference - Modern Orthodox, British (living in UK), convert, mixed race heritage.

Fellow Orthodox Jews of Mumsnet - feel free to crowd share answers, but please remember:

• this is not the shul kiddush. This is a public internet forum anyone can read
• please be sensitive and think about how others (Jewish and not Jewish) might interpret what you say. We sometimes have different working definitions of words within our bubbles so be mindful of that.

Go forth and post!

I have read and learned so much from the two threads, and feel so moved by the importance given to love, community, family and joy in the community you describe. I just find it so hard to reconcile this with the attitude expressed towards LGBT people - in the last thread, the answer was that they would have to either suppress their feelings or leave. It seems so at odds with all the values of acceptance and love that shine through so beautifully, particularly in this very sincere and moving post, and has left me feeling so sad for those who must suffer so greatly as a result of this. That said, I understand it's a feature of really any strict religious group and that more liberal groups exist among all faiths where hopefully everyone can find their place (and of course there is plenty of homophobia and intolerance among non-religious people). I have never given much thought to the value of faith, but these threads have really demonstrated how it can be such a beautiful, enriching and valuable part of human life. I just wonder if there is any chance that attitudes and understanding of LGBT people might change over time.

I'm not sure if anyone has actually answered you yet?

Yes, if a man is unwell and needs to sit on the bus and the only option is to sit next to a woman, he may do so. He might try and put a bag between you or sit on the edge of the seat to avoid touching too much.

If you were getting a bad vibe off him, that may have been something else (even if not fully in his control, like a mental health issue). Please don't feel bigoted for trusting your instincts when it comes to personal safety.

It's a tough one. I think many in the community don't think about it too much until a loved one or someone they know/are responsible 'come out'.

On the one hand, we are committed to the Torah. Specifically for men, the actual sexual act between men itself is not OK at a basic Written Torah level. We cannot dismiss that.

Stepping back from that, as you've seen we are a very (heterosexual) marriage, family and child-orientated, which makes it hard for a same sex couple or family to fit in if they don't meet that norm.

There are different voices within the community. At the more Modern Orthodox end, there has been a recent shift to try and welcome and accommodate LGBT people as far as possible in synagogues on similar lines to people who don't keep Shabbat i.e. they can take part in some activities but attention should not be drawn to the fact that they have broken Shabbat. The more right wing end disagrees in public and has criticised figures like the Chief Rabbi (Modern/Centrist Orthodox) for this. What they do in private when actually faced with this situation, I'm not sure.

Some discomfort with LGBT issues at all levels also comes from the impression that LGBT groups in the secular world are very openly sexualised (see Pride). Public sexualised culture in general does not sit comfortably with our values, regardless of orientation.

Not sure if this is the answer you wanted to hear, but I hope it helps.

Thank you to @jewishorthomum @mirah2 @EllaDisenchanted @Ortiguilla @amcha
@cabbagesandkingsandbeeswax and all the other women who have answered questions on this thread and the previous one. I've been reading since the first thread was on about four pages and I'm truly grateful to you all for sharing your experiences and insights. I'm an agnostic/non-practising Christian and am unlikely to ever be a devout follower of any religion but, as well as learning a lot, I've found your descriptions of community, faith and family truly heartwarming. Thank you for being so generous with your time ♥️

Id like to try to give a bit of context to answers on faith and knowledge:

There’s an interesting kind of tension or balance in the Jewish approach between eternal study and debate and intellectual thinking I.e the commandment to “know Hashem your Gd”, and the emotional aspect - the commandment to believe in Him I.e. (have Emunah) and establish your faith and trust from a non intellectual place. Both are important but I think the emotional faith and trust and relationship comes first .

So we study and learn and can give lots of intellectual answers and reasons for lots of things we believe in (and someone else can probably provide a detailed answer on beliefs around creationism, I’m just running out of time) but they come from a place of “I believe in the Torah”, whether I know the ‘intellectual’ explanation or not . Faith comes first. There are limits to my intellect and understanding . A pretty rough analogy is I don’t understand the science behind my smartphone and how it is made and works, but I know that it does and I can operate it as best as I can without needing to know the why and the how. Also I know there are smarter people than me who do know, even though we have probably passed the point where only a few people have a complete understanding of all the different aspects of how it works. And if I want I can talk to them and they can explain to me how they work.

So too with my belief. First, I believe in Gd and I believe in His Torah; what I learn and understand brings me closer to Gd and reaffirms my belief, rather than being the foundation on which my belief rests. There is an endless amount I can study and learn in Judaism and limits to my time and interest. I went through a period of questioning why I believe and whether I believed in Judaism as a teen. Once I had fully explored that and came to a place of peace and acceptance, and established a core of Emunah and belief in G-d, then although I still learn where and when I want, I’m at peace with with not knowing the answers to everything . It doesn’t stop me believing.

I believe Gd created the world according to how it is explained in Beraishis. How is that understood intellectually ? That’s something I have only read a bit about and I know there is lots of discussion and debate about how creation is interpreted. Eg - “7 days” - is that literal? at this point was a day 24 hours or actually an extremely long period of time? If there is not yet day and night why would it have to be 24 hours? Etc . Science says energy cannot be created or destroyed - so where did energy come from?- this is literally Rashi’s explanation on the first three words of the Torah. Only G- d can create or destroy matter/energy. Perhaps day 1 when He made light, He did it the way the Big Bang Theory describes. I don’t believe in evolution - the Torah says G-d created man, not He created something that evolved into man.

Feminism! As a follow up from the LGBT question

Someone asked way back if anyone would describe ourselves as feminists. My question back - define feminist :)

Seriously - I'm not sure. I've learnt Talmud (at a basic level) and lein Megilla i.e. ritually chant the Book the Esther at Purim. This is more or less normal in Modern Orthodox circles, but the further right you go, the higher the eyebrows would be raised and the more likely I am to be called a feminist 😂

I'm also supportive of feminist campaigns in the community against DV, get-refusal, not erasing pictures of women in magazines etc.

I like to think I'm in touch with wider feminist thinking. I lurk on FWR...but I don't subscribe to any specific school of feminism as a political movement.

There's a view even in the Modern Orthodox community that Feminism, as a movement, is a foreign ideology to Judaism and Halacha, so trying to view Judaism and change Jewish practice through a 'Feminist' lens is a problem. The more I learn, the more I actually agree with this. All the activities I describe above (Talmud, Megilla) have a basis in our own tradition, in halacha. I think the scope for women's roles in halacha is actually broader than many think, and can grow and improve in line with social and cultural changes. Even if Feminism has a role indirectly, I don't like using Feminist language and discourse directly in a Jewish setting. It doesn't feel appropriate or respectful of our tradition.

While I'm less personally involved in this, I think the same could be said for LGBT ideology and the 'LGBT movement'. Drawing a big dividing line between this and individual Jews who are same-sex attracted, bi, or dealing with gender dysphoria/trans issues.

Thanks for all the positive feedback, I appreciate it! :) it’s not always easy to be open, and I’m always a bit cautious and wary, especially when I’ve come across hurtful feedback before that was either patronizing, (people felt ‘sorry for us’) or openly derogatory/antagonistic, and implied they thought we were naive/backwards at best. This has been so refreshing and enjoyable !😀

That's a really interesting follow-up, OP, thank you! I suppose I wasn't thinking in terms of wider movements and events like Pride when I asked; I was thinking very much in the context of loving families how to reconcile the pain of a son or daughter having to deny themselves or lose their place in a close-knit community so really on the individual level. Which is a harder question to answer! And not exclusive to Orthodox Jewish communities either. I think one thing I really appreciate is the sense that your faith is not seeking to impose restrictions on people outside of it, it was said on the first thread that the Jewish faith isn't looking for converts - so I don't in any way get a sense of condemnation of others from any of the women who have posted so generously on here, which might come from hardline Christians for example. So thanks for your answers, it's been one of the most thought-provoking series of threads I have read on here.

Thank you, @EllaDisenchanted , it's been enlightening. Also, some threads are so full of negativity and arguments it's nice to hear proper discussions.

I've also found this thread really interesting so thank you.

Over the past couple of years, I've been doing some in-school assessments of teachers in orthodox Jewish schools in Manchester. I have a number of Jewish friends but hadn't come across orthodox schools before.

I've found it quite an eye-opening experience for the four or five primary schools I've spent the day at:

• The schools have security at the gates - saddens me that this is necessary
• The schools were in a really bad state of repair (I think they're private schools)
• The kids were excited by small things - class pencils were handed out as a treat
• The kids were very sweet (and produced some amazing work) but spent a lot of time staring at us as if we were alien species...!
• Hearing one of the teachers talk about the challenge of lockdown learning without access to the internet at school or at home
• One of the things we assess is preparing pupils for future careers. In the girls' schools, they said this was limited to teaching so interesting to read your comments about working in the NHS
• There was a sign in one of the loos saying "Say this three times and you'll never have to see a doctor your whole life" (This could definitely help me, I feel I spend too much time at the hospital!).

My parents are practising Christians and my brother is Muslim so I'm used to religious practices. But it was an insight into a completely different way of living and, as you say, quite a closed community (as is my brother's in some ways).

On a minor note, I'm very envious of the food side of the religion. My Jewish friend takes us to Panzers in St John's Wood and the food is lush, particularly challah.

Some of the things discussed on this thread have been quite intimate and personal. Thank you (and the other Orthodox Jewish ladies) for being so open to our curiosity.

It addition to learning more about Judaism, I found it very interesting to see what others have taken from your posts. I would have thought on a thread like this, people would be grateful for the information shared. It’s unfortunate that some posters seem to have taken things that are new and different to their own way of life or outlook on life quite personally and negatively.

For my part, it has reinforced my earlier belief that the three major monotheistic religions have much, much more in common than they do points of separation. I wish that more people would recognise that.

Thank you again for taking the time to post and being so open to, frankly, nosy and personal questions! 💐

Thanks for your answer on evolution and creation.
I can understand the idea that belief in God is not incompatible with scientific ideas about eg the big bang. Evolution though you can see happening in all species - more easily of course in those with shorter lives compared to humans. Not to mention all the other evidence.

For me personally this was the trigger for my atheism, seeing religion in the context of hundreds of thousands of years of human history. I do still keep kosher and other practices to an extent.

It's interesting that Judaism is such a questioning, intellectual religion in many ways but there's obviously a barrier beyond which things are absolutely not questioned (the 'fence around the Torah' in my understanding).

At school, 30 ish years ago, there were maybe 7-8 Jewish girls in my year. We were all at mainstream school (grammar). When it came to RE lessons, the Jewish girls had a separate class and just learned about Judaism. Would this still be the case today still, or if girls were attending mainstream schools would they learn about other religions? Im also curious about them being taught about Judaism by a non-Jew - but maybe someone came in especially to teach them? I don’t know.

At least two of the girls have since moved to Israel, and if they are wearing wigs they are extremely good ones! One especially is very progressive in her work and approach, is this typical of people that choose to live in Israel? I remember earlier in the thread someone said that ultra Orthodox Jews don’t approve of Israel yet.

Also about names, one of my old school friend’s family had changed their surname to sound less Jewish. How common is this?

I don’t know why but where I went to school, and live now, there used to be much more of a Jewish community. All of the girls I knew from school, and Jewish boys too, have moved away and their family businesses have gone. I literally do not know a single Jew any more here and that makes me feel a bit sad. Are there any reasons why a community might dwindle like that?

Thank you all again for answering all of our questions with such thought and generosity. I am really appreciating the chance to learn more.

You weren't there. I was.

Also, as I thought I'd explained quite clearly, i wasn't upset or offended because he was insulting G-d.

The grave insult and offence was towards the Jewish people.

He blamed Jews for not being sufficiently observant and said that they had therefore deserved to be horrifically and industrially slaughtered in their millions, including men, women, children and babies- many of my close relatives among them.

He also effectively excused the Nazis for what they did.

It surprises me that I have to spell it out again like this. Please don't try to 'catch me out' on the basis of a perceived logical 'error' in what I have posted

It's pretty straightforward and it's shocking that you would defend it. I'm not interested in arguing about this.

I was sharing my experience to demonstrate the way that some Orthodox men can hold very hateful views towards those they consider 'bad Jews'.

I'm not interested in debating this philosophically it was then, and remains, a profoundly appalling thing to say.

Excellent clarification, @Ortiguilla . Thank you.

@brogueish

The name thing - yes, very common. Many Rosenbergs became Rose, Ross, etc. My own family dropped the very Polish ending of their name when my dad was born and anglicised it. Other family names were also anglicised (the Queen's family did this too so we're in good company 😁)

In terms of the dwindling community, this is the story of the last 50 years or so in the UK. Places like Cardiff, Swansea, Liverpool, Hull, etc used to have significant Jewish communities. As time has gone on, the younger people have tended to either emigrate to Israel, or move to London or Manchester where the communities are now concentrated.

I've been to shul in Cardiff and almost everyone there was over 60. All of their grandchildren have moved away. 100 years ago there was a thriving community.

@brogueish p.s. I should point out that most of the family surnames go back no more than about 200 years max.

We all have Hebrew names which are in many ways considered our real names. And these include your father's name

So e.g. Chaia rivka bas avraham yitzak
The 'bas' means daughter of
The male equivalent would be 'ben'

Thanks 😊

Thank you @Ortiguilla, again. Thinking about it, another school friend converted before she got married a Jewish boy. I think she and her family are in north London now, which makes sense. Reading all of these posts it makes me very happy for her that she is part of such a lovely community. Not that I ever doubted it or thought about it really, but you know.

How did the affair end? Did his wife know?

@ThePoetsWife no she didn't and it ended when I finished it after about 18 months. Went on so long as I was down south and he was in Manchester although we would speak every single day bar the weekend on the phone (mobile phones very much existed but not like they do now!)

@mirah2 thank you for that. I felt awful last night for any offence, but I can see that I could have worded my post better.

I think it's quite interesting that this one uncomfortable encounter in 8 years is almost insignificant in contrast to the amount of times I've been groped etc on buses and tubes over the years by other men. This specific rule does seem to keep women safe. I never felt unsafe walking through Stamford Hill at any time of the day or night.

The men there might not be friendly to women, but they're also not a threat.

The thing about evolution is that there is a spectrum of views. That is, everybody believes in Breishit, that is a given - but there is a famous statement in Tehillim (Psalms) where G-d says - my day is your 1000 years. And many understand therefore the seven days as being a form of seven stages, and evolution being a part of that. More on the modern orthodox side of things, and when my DC were going to school and were coming home with dinosaurs never existed we had a lot of conversations, depending on the age of the DC, because I didn't want to undermine the teachers, but I also wanted my DC to know my views. And especially if you know something about the theory of relativity, time is a very flexible concept. I confess I think sometimes some parts of the community are far more influenced by the right wing Christian movement in America than they ought to be, or need to be (that is just my personal opinion though). I think sometimes particularly the American communities feel that they need allies, and the right wing Christian movement is often willing (nay keen) to be those allies, but the way they express things and understand things then sometimes seeps across (but this is really just my personal view). When you feel a bit friendless, sometimes one takes friends where one can find them.

The truth is, - it doesn't matter a huge amount - it is not really much of a burning issue (it once was, I can remember when it was a key issue for young people questioning), but now people aren't really to worried about it, or bothered. They make their own accommodation with the science, it is not really that core - other things are much more core.

Just wanted to add - although I haven't been following this part of the conversation closely - that this yells "red flag" to me. Unfortunately one cannot deny that there are men who do not keep to, or want to keep to, the rules,n no matter how they were brought up or what their wear - of course they exist. And you do, as always being a woman, need to trust your instincts and not trust in external badges, being clothes, or police badges or whatever. One of the things you have to tell your girls is that just because somebody looks frum (religious) and is dressed frum, does not mean that he is - and if he crosses the boundaries, that means that he by definition is not, whatever he is wearing or whatever family he comes from.

Indeed, it's the behaviours and not the appearance that means I never felt unsafe. That's not to say I would have blindly trusted anyone or knowingly put myself in an unsafe situation.

I just wanted to give a slightly different perspective on the SH community, as comments have been largely negative around that area so far. And my experience wasn't negative for the most part.

Although my comments on the positive parts weren't mentioned as being bigoted...lesson learned.