Jewish Orthodox Mum Part II AMA

[mirah2]

I'm probably letting myself in for it, but here goes...

New AMA to mop up any questions that didn't get answered on the first (full) thread. If you're sure (after reading all of that thread) that your question wasn't answered, or have a new question, please post.

I probably won't have time to reply until after dinner and kids' bedtime.

I am NOT the OP of the original thread. My frame of reference - Modern Orthodox, British (living in UK), convert, mixed race heritage.

Fellow Orthodox Jews of Mumsnet - feel free to crowd share answers, but please remember:

• this is not the shul kiddush. This is a public internet forum anyone can read
• please be sensitive and think about how others (Jewish and not Jewish) might interpret what you say. We sometimes have different working definitions of words within our bubbles so be mindful of that.

Go forth and post!

Well kind of both. Intention does matter, but you can sin accidently. There are various levels of sin - where you sin intentionally, the term is mezid; where you sin accidently but you were kind of negligent in doing so, the term is shogeg, where you sin because you were forced to (eg somebody held a gun to your head, or there was some other level of compulsion) - there is a term for that to - called anuus, and there is also a term where you had no intention to sin and didn't even do something that was a bit negligent that kind of led you into sin, it just was an unintended result of doing something else and you had no idea/nobody really expected it would happen, which is called misasek. Misasek is not really considered a sin. Anuus there are times you are required to give into force - eg if somebody held a gun at your head and said eat pork, you probably should eat the pork (there is a debate amongst the rabbis whether you are allowed to give up your life rather than eat the pork, although the circumstances are taken into account - if it was very public maybe you should give up your life etc, if it was just some idiot, probably you shouldn't). If you do something b'shogeg - kind of negligently, once upon a time, when there was a temple, you were expected to bring a sacrifice, and in any event it is considered a sin, as you should have thought to avoid the situation, and hence require some level of atonement. If you did it deliberately, however, the level of sin is greater and the atonement required is higher.

We don't have any private Jewish hospitals in the UK - this is an American thing. So yes, they would be on the NHS.

We have a private ambulance service (Hatzola), but if you needed to be seen in hospital they will take you to an NHS A&E.

Such a great thread, so rare to get an insight into another culture which has always seemed so mysterious to me.

I lived for 8 years next to Stamford Hill (closest doctors surgery and supermarket was Stamford hill). My interactions were limited, but not wholly negative as other have mentioned. I think only two interactions with men in the 8 years - first when I had just moved to the area and went into a shop (some sort of key cutting hardware store I think). I was not welcome, he almost shooed us out. And then locked the door behind us. I was mostly a bit amused at the reaction. I quickly learned the rules, and didn't go into the shop again 😄
2nd I was very uncomfortable...by this point I had been in the area 5-6 years and a male sat next to me on the bus - close enough to be touching (although not skin to skin). It had never happened before and I consciously wouldn't sit next to a Jewish male as I thought it would make them uncomfortable (not that they usually sat on the bus).
I just got a bad vibe from him. But maybe that's because it was so unusual, and I knew it wasn't what he 'should' do. Is there any legitimate reason he may have done this? If he'd been unwell?

My interactions with Jewish women were all positive. Smiles at doctors when we both had babies etc. One asked me at a bus stop to use my phone to call her sister. Many of these kind of interactions over the years (only one phone call request though!).

Thank you so much for this thread - I've been reading it on and off for days and am hooked!

I asked this on the other thread but it wasn't answered, and in light of new information making UC rules stricter want to ask:

From what I've read a large proportion of the SH community is in receipt of benefits, and the cap has made things very difficult for many families. In light of the expectation that men study and family sizes are large, are the commu ity worried about this? How do they forsee being able to live and adequately house 7 or so children?

Mostly I (and I think most mums) wouldn't tell their children the were going to mikvah - just that Mummy is going out. I did sometimes get some aggrieved questions trying to probe where i was going, but I thought it was important to maintain my (our) privacy and stonewalled them. I think as they get older if they have been taught about mikvah at school (girls, not boys) they might have some idea when you come home with wet hair - note presumably those women who keep their hair covered in front of their kids don't have this, but in our family I don't, so I would generally take my hat off once I got home if it was just family, so the kids might notice it was wet. Also while there were hair driers in many of the mikvaot, I confess I generally couldn't be bothered with that, and tended to come home with my hair still wet under my hat. But by the time they were noticing and might be putting two and two together, they knew enough that it was private and not to ask. DH of course was on childcare duty when I went to mikvah - so it is not just where I go, but it might also be, why is he home early from work or not going to shul or whatever other bit of the routine is altered. But they also kind of knew this was part of the way life is that sometimes these things changed and just accepted it

I hope you had a lovely day yesterday and relaxed with your family.I have talked about this thread to my son and husband…my excuse for not doing anything for two days! Today I met up with my daughter and told her about this amazing thread …she is now going to join mumsnet to educate herself . Can honestly say that you and the other ladies have really been inspiring and if I could live a different life I would share it with you .Xx

Such a great thread, thank you.

Thank you @amcha , that's very interesting.

The example of being forced to eat pork made me think of another question, because that's the exact story of the martyrdom of Eleazar in 2 Maccabees: I know the books of Maccabees aren't part of the Tanakh but that you celebrate Hanukkah from one of the episodes in them, so my question is what status do these books have? Are they read in religious study groups, or privately, or not at all? Are they considered heretical or reliable (even if not divinely inspired)?

Thank you!

Hurrah, you're all back!
I hope you all had a peaceful Shabbat.
Are boys not taught about the Mikvah at all?
If not, when do men learn? As preparation for marriage?
Thank you all for being so frank in your responses.

Thank you @jewishorthomum & @mirah2 for answering my questions about mental health/ health care provision. I didn’t realise that about private Jewish hospitals being a US thing. Also interesting about Shabbat provision in hospitals (sorry can’t remember poster’s name that mentioned this!).

One of the difficulties in answering this question is that none of the mums on here are part of that community - ie Stamford Hill is mostly chassidic, and none of those posting on here are. Also though, there is a bit of a confluence of ideas above - the chassidim by and large are less into this idea that all the men should be in full time learning than the yeshivishe. Most chassidim have jobs, it is just that secular learning is a bit of an anthema, their schools tend to do the minimum, at least for boys, and they shun wider exposure and hence university (well they don't have the skills or education to go, but they wouldn't go because of the interaction). ie the chassidic community is much bigger on isolation. That means that the kind of jobs they do mostly don't pay that well (except for the few who do well in business, and then often end up spending a lot of that money supporting everybody else in their community) ie they are menial, stacking in shops, type entry level jobs. So a lot of people are living hand to mouth, and there is a lot of charity given within the community (a huge amount, in all sorts of ways - all sorts of things can be borrowed when necessary) and a lot make do on relatively little, but those of us in the more modern orthodox community have been saying for (well over 50 years I have heard it), that it is not sustainable - and all I can say is that so far they have managed to sustain it (although not without a lot of people from those communities, particularly in Israel, turning up at our door and asking for money - we get a steady stream of those requesting charity). The situation in Israel is much more complicated because of the requirement to go in the army if they are not in learning, so people in the chassidic communities in Israel stay in learning for much longer than they do in Stamford Hill - where by and large they are working, just not earning enough to support the size of families they have. In the yeshivishe communities there is much more of this idea that the men should be in learning, but the women are often working and expect to be working - so there is money coming in, and many do leave learning eventually if they are not going to be the next great rabbi - but again unless you are good enough to be a teacher, the kinds of jobs available to someone who has spent five six seven years post high school in learning is not great. And even if teaching, well the pay is not exactly great (as any teacher will tell you), and if they are teaching Jewish studies the schools pay even less than a professional secular teacher.

I think many doctors try and make sure their shifts are not on shabbat or holidays if possible. Exception is in Israel, where most medical staff are Jewish so if an Orthodox Jew always takes off then other Jews will be doing the work, so its pretty normal I think for Orthodox medical staff to work on shabbat.

Similarly, Orthdox politicians will make shabbat arrangements that they can be contacted if needed. (Older Mumsnetters might remember Joe Leiberman who was almost the USA vice-president back in 2000 if not for the pesky hanging chads. He is an Orthodox Jew)

I remember seeing a programme about Jewish divorce.
Do you know any women whose husbands refused to give them a Get?

Today at our Shabbos lunch meal my husband said a Torah thought that I thought encapsulated Judaism beautifully.

There is the story that an irreligious Jewish man came to a Rabbi and asked the Rabbi "I'll keep the Torah if you can explain it whilst I'm standing on one foot" (Meaning, teach it to me really really quickly)
The Torah contains 613 commandments so this would obviously be impossible. So instead the Rabbi told him the one commandment of "Love others as you love yourself".
So the question is asked why did the Rabbi choose this one commandment out of all 613?
Because Judaism is all about living for a higher purpose.
The best training for this is to to look out for and treat others well. Once you know how to look beyond your own wants and do kindness with others, you will also be able to selflessly do as God wants.

So for those of you here who've had upsetting incidents by other Jews behaving disrespectfully, know that Judaism holds kind treatment of others as a priority.

For a man like that to blame millions and millions of innocent men, women, children and babies for their own murder - to say that they brought it on themselves by being insufficiently religious, in their narrow interpretation of it - it was and remains one of the worst things anyone has ever said to my face. Apart from anything else, he effectively exonerated Hitler and the Nazis and everyone who carried out the Holocaust.

Isn't the whole outrage with what that man told you somewhat intellectually dishonest? I mean if you believe in a just God it follows perforce that He allowed the Holocaust to happen for a reason. Not that people can necessarily know God's reasons, but to say there was no rhyme or reason is to basically either completely deny the existence of God or at the very least to deny His justice.

It's a sad reality that often good intellectual questions are quashed because the subject is distasteful to some. I think as long as you're not being specifically and gratuitously offensive to anyone, no question should be off limits.

From what I understand the Jewish way is to question and debate everything?

Maccabees is not part of the canon, and most people (other than the more academic) don't even know about it. I only learnt about it because at one point i took a Second Temple History course at the Hebrew University (many, many years ago) - ie in an academic non religious context. Pretty much nobody learns it within the orthodox community. There is quite a lot of apocrypha out there that people tend to ignore within the community - not sure I fully know why, but they are not part of the mainstream, and that include Maccabees. Ben Sirach is actually quoted in the Gemara, but most people don't even know it exists.

2nd I was very uncomfortable...by this point I had been in the area 5-6 years and a male sat next to me on the bus - close enough to be touching (although not skin to skin). It had never happened before and I consciously wouldn't sit next to a Jewish male as I thought it would make them uncomfortable (not that they usually sat on the bus).
I just got a bad vibe from him. But maybe that's because it was so unusual, and I knew it wasn't what he 'should' do. Is there any legitimate reason he may have done this? If he'd been unwell?

Some of the questions are really interesting because they are about Jewish laws and life. But others, like the one I quoted, are a bit bigoted (no offence). You wouldn't ask a black person to explain that one time you say another black person behaving badly, and I don't see why it's appropriate to ask one Jew to explain the obviously predatory behaviour of another.

Im not Jewish but work for the NHS and I can assure you CAMHS is very involved with Jewish teens both orthodox and not religious. We are North London so that might just be the catchment but there are certainly plenty of Jewish children in the system. This could be anything from how strict their upbringing is with all the rules and shame that goes with wanting to be different or something like the pressure of going to selective schools. Eating disorders are another big thing. I will say though that the support services in the community are above and beyond and they have many more charities because they do pull together.

@EverythingBagels it's an AMA, and the poster was asking for possible reasons he might not have been adhering to the rules. I read the blog of an elderly Jewish man from SH and he complains about fellow Jews being too strict about this. He said he caught a woman on the street once who had fallen off the bus and she shouted at him for touching her. He called her a few choice words 😅. So clearly not everyone abides by every single rule.

I'm sorry I came across like that, it certainly wasn't my intention.

I was taking a break from food prep and probably didn't think through my wording.

The man on the bus didn't actually do anything 'wrong', I could sit next to anyone I wanted to on the bus. But my religion doesn't forbid it. I probably would have felt uncomfortable with anyone sitting that close (kind of leaning). I guess I was specifically asking if there is situations where this is OK?
He didn't seem unwell, but I obviously couldn't say for sure, if he was unwell and needed to sit down - the empty seat next to a female would be OK in this scenario?

Yes unfortunately. There was a good outcome though, some members of the community took action and basically forced him to give the get.
abusive people use any method at their disposal to continue to abuse. Some use the family courts , or threat of going for custody custody, and in Judaism some use get refusal. There is a growing awareness of the issue and activism around change in this area , spearheaded by women .
this instagrammer has been a big part of driving change https://www.instagram.com/p/CLuQizULRgH/?igshid=YmMyMTA2M2Y=

@EachandEveryone that's interesting you say that about the prevelance of eating disorders, as the orthodox women I follow joke about the pressure to be a size 0. I wonder why that is? It must be very hard with such nice food on offer 😢

Basically the rule for doctors is because medicine is about saving lives, that overrules, and they work pretty much normal shifts in the NHS (obviously if you can find somebody to swap with, that would be ideal, but the reality is as a junior doctor, that is unlikely, and you have to fit into the system). As you get more senior, like most more senior doctors, you get more control over your time, and people may choose to go into specialities that are less likely to demand shabbat work. But doctors (and nurses and midwives) are the exception (midwives in particular, it is lifesaving and it is what is needed and you have to work). Most other jobs, the requirements of shabbat are something you flag up to an employer before and are non negotiable. I have spent many years working as a solicitor in the city on high pressured transactions, and you have to think ahead and make sure you have cover and cover for other people at other times, but it is all manageable. No exceptions. I have though worked all Thursday nights sometimes to ensure things are in as good a position as they can be for someone taking over, or to make sure a deal closes, and then sometimes all Saturday nights as well.

Thank you. So how do Jewish people know the story of the origins of Hannukah? Is there a different source for it, or is it just told by oral tradition? I know that it's considered a minor festival (because it's not in the Torah?), but is it still considered to have been instituted by God in some way, albeit not directly?

[I'm not Jewish] Re. a query upthread about healthcare staff and working on Saturdays: I'm a HCP in a Mon-Sat service and some of my Jewish colleagues have technically part time/flexible working contracts so they don't work on Shabbat. Rightly, the rest of us don't have any issues with this and frankly don't really notice (this thread made me think about it). Anyone who expressed any negativity about this would be given extremely short shrift by the team and dealt with appropriately by management. I'd hope other NHS trusts were the same but obviously I don't know.

[Sorry for butting in, hope my post is okay]