Jewish Orthodox Mum Part II AMA

[mirah2]

I'm probably letting myself in for it, but here goes...

New AMA to mop up any questions that didn't get answered on the first (full) thread. If you're sure (after reading all of that thread) that your question wasn't answered, or have a new question, please post.

I probably won't have time to reply until after dinner and kids' bedtime.

I am NOT the OP of the original thread. My frame of reference - Modern Orthodox, British (living in UK), convert, mixed race heritage.

Fellow Orthodox Jews of Mumsnet - feel free to crowd share answers, but please remember:

• this is not the shul kiddush. This is a public internet forum anyone can read
• please be sensitive and think about how others (Jewish and not Jewish) might interpret what you say. We sometimes have different working definitions of words within our bubbles so be mindful of that.

Go forth and post!

Well then please define Judaism.

I keep coming back to the analogy because it's apt. It's no more offensive or rude to say reform etc aren't subsets of Judaism, as it is to say TW aren't subsets of womanhood.

There are concepts and ideas that have clearly defined meanings.

Of course Reform Judaism is a subset of Judaism. The clue is in the name. (I am not Reform, by the way.)

OUR FAITH
Reform Judaism maintains faith in the Covenant between God and Israel as expressed over the generations in the teachings of an ever-evolving Torah and tradition. Stirred by the mandate of tikkun olam, Reform Judaism seeks to be the living expression of those teachings. It welcomes all who seek Jewish connection to pursue a life of meaning as inspired by the Divine and proclaimed in the truths grasped by Jewish teachers throughout time.
IN COMMUNITY
In sacred attachment to the Jewish people and with connection to the State of Israel, Reform Jews, as members of a group and as individuals, in holy congregations and in diverse settings, strive to make thoughtful choices about how we put our values into action. Reform Judaism asks us to seek the holiness that is present throughout creation through reflection, critical study, and sacred acts so as to renew our living Covenant with God, the people Israel, humankind, and the earth.
WITH LEADERSHIP
The organizations of the Reform Movement exist for the purpose of bringing the teachings of Judaism to the world. In partnership with one another, these organizations hope to realize the many lessons contained in those teachings by nurturing individual Jews, by sustaining congregations and groups that foster authentic and innovative community, and by shaping a shared destiny for Reform Jews with fellow Jews in Israel and around the world.

I would consider someone in your circumstances as a tinok shenishba, i.e. a child raised in captivity, who therefore has no awareness of our traditions and mitzvos, through no fault of their own, and sins out of total lack of awareness, and is therefore not held responsible for their actions. This does not change the fact that if you are born a Jew, you will always be a Jew. I'd also feel sad that you were missing out on so much of our heritage and tradition. I would not judge

Mind you, I was once told by a Charedi man that the Holocaust was G-d's punishment for the Jews for not being sufficiently observant.

Crikey that's appalling. Do you think this was his genuinely held belief, or if he was just trying to antagonise you? @Ortiguilla

Of course Reform Judaism is a subset of Judaism. The clue is in the name.

By that logic transWOMEN are women as the clue's in the name.

Do you accept that certain things and concepts have clear definitions, fixed over centuries and millenia, and it's not for anyone to come and appropriate them?

Judaism always was the religion that follows the Torah as revealed to all Jews by Hashem on Mt Sinai, and thereafter passed down through Moses.

When a group of people don't believe in Hashem or in the divinity of the Torah, that is up to them, but they have no right to appropriate the term Judaism. Much as men prancing about in makeup have no right to the term woman.

There shouldn't really be anything controversial with what I'm saying.

That doesn't contradict anything I've said. Of course I feel sorry for them. I've knocked on many doors in Norris Lea area offering up my time to study Torah with non-practicing Jews. It's the greatest tragedy when Jews are disconnected from Hashem, even if through no fault of their own.

Are you saying it's fine and dandy to marry out and not circumcise your son? Because if you're not saying that, I think we're in agreement with my original statement that no orthodox Jew would say that.

But why do you feel the need to continue to post on this thread, despite all the Jewish women asking you not to, and despite the non-Jewish women telling you repeatedly that your posts are making them uncomfortable?

It's just male arrogance.
We see it so often on MN.
It's depressing.

Reposting this in the vague hope that an ego can be set aside in order to not entirely tarnish an otherwise brilliant discussion...

Perhaps @JeweyJew would like to be respectful of the feedback from women on here, both Jewish and non Jewish, who have said his approach and contributions have often been rude, disrespectful, hostile and sometimes inappropriate, and hold off on further posting until the Jewish women sharing their insights can also join in again.

He probably gets his jollies from telling women they're bad.

This is my last post before signing off for Shabbos. Yes, it was truly appalling, and I note that the man dominating this thread hasn't bothered to acknowledge or engage with that. Perhaps he believes the same thing himself.

It was a somewhat fraught situation in which this conversation took place, and he may not have been entirely in his right mind to say it out loud. However, I was left in no doubt that he genuinely believed it.

I have met quite a few ultra-orthodox men like him, who seem to despise Jews like me more than anything else in the world.

They are so, so convinced that they understand everything and are right about everything. So for them, Jews who choose to follow a different path, but still define ourselves as Jews, are a huge insult.

I am a Jew to my core. I'm the daughter of a Kohain and my mum is also the daughter of a Kohain - my bloodline on both sides reaches directly back to the priests in Aaron's temple. It's in my DNA and in my face and in my childhood and my prayers and in millennia of my family's histories.

For a man like that to blame millions and millions of innocent men, women, children and babies for their own murder - to say that they brought it on themselves by being insufficiently religious, in their narrow interpretation of it - it was and remains one of the worst things anyone has ever said to my face. Apart from anything else, he effectively exonerated Hitler and the Nazis and everyone who carried out the Holocaust.

If there had been a chance of me following a more Orthodox path, it was never an option again after that conversation.

Signing off til Saturday evening/Sunday morning now. Good shabbos to all the women on this thread.

I dont think the two examples are direct comparators.

The argument that men cannot become women is rooted in biology. Scientific facts which can be proven.

Re Judaism - you are describing are two differing approaches or interpretations to an ideology which is not supported by the same scientific proof.

Thank you for explaining that, I remember being uncomfortable with how an Orthodox Jewish woman’s husband was behaving when I was a student nurse on placement on the Labour ward over 30 years ago.

He was being really distant and turning away. The baby was poorly and I remember being sent to bleep the paediatrician, he didn’t comfort his wife but that all makes sense now.

Maybe it's best to ignore.

Telling Jewish people that they are bad Jews is a personal fucking insult jfc the arrogance.

What can be proven is that we are a dimorphic species and there are only two sexes. But the idea that manhood and womanhood are inextricably tied to male and female is sociological rather than scientific.

What I'm saying, and nobody really says otherwise, is that for millenia Judaism meant following the religion as set out in the Torah revealed to all of us by Hashem.

That's an incontrovertible fact.

For a group to come about in the modern age and appropriate the term Judaism for something completely foreign, for an ideology that denies Hashem and the divinity of the Torah, is offensive to say the least.

I have a brief lull while some food cooks, and can answer a few more quick questions if anyone wants. Apologies If I don't answer a specific question, I am not ignoring you, some questions take longer than others to answer and need more though, and I am not going to post something half baked (like my chicken right now lol) in a rush.

@Ortiguilla Thanks for your response, that's just awful. I've seen some people - quite recently actually and definitely non-Jews - who accuse Jews (or Zionists which seems to be their preferred term but it's clear who they mean) of being in collusion with Nazis in the 1930s. So it seems like a similar argument.

I am a Jew to my core. I'm the daughter of a Kohain and my mum is also the daughter of a Kohain - my bloodline on both sides reaches directly back to the priests in Aaron's temple.

I realise you might not get this now until after tomorrow, but just one quick question - I'm assuming this is the same as the name 'Cohen' meaning Priest, and so do people with that surname have a different or higher significance to other Jews than non-Kohain/Cohen families? So for instance would it be easier for someone called Cohen to become a rabbi? I'm sure I've asked some friends this before but can't remember the answer! And apologies to others on the thread if this has been covered already!

On the marrying out front, I know several women who got to their late 30s, and decided they would rather marry and have kids with someone who wasn't Jewish than not have kids at all. I could see the logic in that, have invited them round with spouses, and their children have in the main turned out to be committed Jews, if not always especially religious (with a couple of exceptions). But not having a brit for your son would be the dealbreaker for me - I would think you had abandoned Judaism (as I would if you had married someone Jewish and not had a brit).

I think you're probably right at this point.

But how sad to see such a fascinating thread hijacked and driven off course by the insistence of a male determined to continue behaving in a way making women uncomfortable, even when told that's what he's doing.

I hope the women who encounter this approach in real life can roll their eyes and disengage as we are choosing to do, rather than feeling dismissed or belittled as is so often the consequence of this behaviour. Especially sad if they have daughters.

To those who hav answered questions in a respectful way (which is everyone else I think!) thank you, it's been so interesting.

Honestly, the best thing to do with persistent trolls is to ignore them completely. Just don't engage with trolls.

Agreed - the comment to @Ortiguilla was beyond the pale.

People with the surname Cohen may be a Cohen, but not always. I vaguely recall there are some Welsh people who are called Cohen but I haven't checked. Kehuna is passed down through the male bloodline, and has to be traced back to Aaron Hakohein. Having the surname is not enough, and also there are many Kohanim who are not called Cohen.

It would not be easier for them to become a Rabbi. They had / have a special role in the Temple, and we believe when the third Temple is rebuilt, they will resume their responsibilities. They also bless the congregation on holy days outside of Israel, and daily in Israel. They have to keep themselves spiritually pure, and will avoid being in contact with people who have passed away, as the means for spiritual purification is no longer available to us.

@JeweyJew Look, many Jewish and non-Jewish women have pointed out your presence is antagonistic and makes them feel uncomfortable. If you don't want to accept that then fine, so why not just start your own AMA and let women have their own space here. If people wish to discuss your own personal experiences of Judaism then they can jump on your thread and ask away.

Agree with others to ignore him now.

@EllaDisenchanted Thank you, that's absolutely fascinating!

My eldest is on his way back from school. My youngest is napping. I really really need to go and get us all ready for Shabbat.

@JeweyJew I've reported some of your posts. I can see you've have other posts deleted. I know where you are coming from, but for goodness sake please just stop. Step away from the keyboard. Go learn some Pirkei Avos, it would be much better for you.

Even if you are right halachically, do you really think that speaking to other Jewish/Jewish-heritage posters the way you have done on this thread is going to bring them closer to Judaism or think better of their fellow Jews? The evidence suggests not.

Please stop being a Chillul Hashem.

Gut Shabbos

Everyone else - to be continued late Saturday night at the earliest (and I mean late).

I am very aware that most of the women on this thread are trying to prepare for Shabbos, and that they're feeling the need to pop back on to the thread every so often, to calm things down.
It must be very, very stressful, at a time when they're attempting to get into a peaceful and prayerful frame of mind for the most important part of their week.
Ladies, you have been wonderful. Please go to your families now and forget this thread until you have the time and mental energy to return.